tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post5889220605517617433..comments2024-03-28T16:55:57.201-04:00Comments on AS BEREANS DID: Common Legalist Arguments - Part VMarthahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12438486498450616814noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-44109000404429197492009-07-16T15:21:02.978-04:002009-07-16T15:21:02.978-04:00Purple Hymnal,
If I read and understood correctly...Purple Hymnal,<br /><br />If I read and understood correctly, Christian posters attacked your ideas, not you personally.<br /><br />A personal adhominem attack would be something like saying that your feet smelled, or that you must have used a lot of LSD in attempting to recover from WCG. There is a difference.<br /><br />I notice that you are Canadian. Did you grow up speaking English or French?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-80883167151888075012009-07-01T21:51:49.117-04:002009-07-01T21:51:49.117-04:00Good to hear from you again, Q,
"Yes indeed ...Good to hear from you again, Q,<br /><br />"Yes indeed – but I do consider that it’s God that does the calling, so I don’t feel a need to push my belief on to others. But certainly I would confirm my belief to anyone that was discussing this subject, or enquiring of me."<br /><br />Could not agree more.<br /><br />"Unfortunately many people, maybe particularly those with a ‘legalist’ bent, not only judge others, but can also mentally ‘beat themselves up’ because of their own failings. Which is rather sad."<br /><br />Now, this truly is a sad thing. I wish these people would accept the level of grace God has gifted them. I mean, they were God's enemy when He forgave them. Perhaps they have sinned so many times and they think they don't deserve forgiveness anymore. Well, I'd hate to tell them, we didn't deserve forgiveness the first time. It isn't any better or worse the thousandth time. He knew our sins before He created us; He knows all our sins -- yet He still forgives us. His grace is sufficient.<br />America has an estimated $99 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. What if someone just up and forgave every cent? How could anyone feel superior, or beat themselves up?<br /><br />Knowing God's limitless love and undeserved grace is the key to so much more in Christian life.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-29588838290039596892009-07-01T20:55:48.557-04:002009-07-01T20:55:48.557-04:00"xHWA said...
I was hoping to see Questeruk&..."xHWA said... <br />I was hoping to see Questeruk's comments on this post……..<br /><br />I hope that we can agree on two things:<br />1) we see Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal Savior and we confess as much before men<br />2) that my whole point it not about the law per se but about condemnation. If you really do not fall for the poison of Armstrong, which is setting yourself above others because of the law, then you and I are already in agreement."<br /><br /><br />Hi xHWA,<br /><br />Thanks for your concern. Don’t worry, you’ve not driven me off! <br /><br />Just been a bit busy, and it’s likely to stay that way for a week or two, so I won’t make a detailed comment at this point. <br /><br />However I will say that I certainly can agree with your two points, with a couple of comments. <br /><br />1) we see Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal Savior and we confess as much before men. <br /><br />Yes indeed – but I do consider that it’s God that does the calling, so I don’t feel a need to push my belief on to others. But certainly I would confirm my belief to anyone that was discussing this subject, or enquiring of me. <br /><br /><br />2) that my whole point it not about the law per se but about condemnation. If you really do not fall for the poison of Armstrong, which is setting yourself above others because of the law, then you and I are already in agreement.<br /><br /><br />Yes, I do believe that is your point. (This was something that I hadn’t appreciated in some of our earlier discussions). <br /><br />For my part, I do not feel in the slightest above others because of the way of life that I lead. I consider that all people are equal human beings, and I also believe that every individual will at some point in their existence come to understand their personal relationship with God. <br /><br />I completely support your point of getting ‘people to stop all the judgment and condemnation. Of others and of their selves’.<br /><br />Unfortunately many people, maybe particularly those with a ‘legalist’ bent, not only judge others, but can also mentally ‘beat themselves up’ because of their own failings. Which is rather sad.Questerukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06659962107808147107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-45676339416695652272009-06-25T16:42:52.558-04:002009-06-25T16:42:52.558-04:00""The spirit of the law as we see things...""The spirit of the law as we see things in the New Covenant will change a person's heart."<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on this. My proof? The three Christians in the past week who have attacked me on AW. In the past WEEK."<br /><br />Right, but maybe for the wrong reason. It is God who changes, or give a person a new heart, aka the heart of flesh that replaces the heart of stone; aka "God's law" aka the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />No one can change their own heart, and this is part of the proof of the old covenant and those who lived under it.<br /><br />Now, if you conclude that if three Christians "attack" you, thus demonstrating they are not in possession of said new heart, I put it to you that you are working from your perspective and bias. Paul wrote that those who taught circumcision should go one step further... he also refers to some of what he wrote as crude. Does that mean Paul was not Christian? Or does this mean you are using your own contrived standards to judge others and their spirituality? And are your actions and behavior excused if you do the same things because you claim to be something other than "Christian"? Can you hold "Christians" to one standard while demanding you not be held to the same standard?Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18122238110750804356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-45599759650667166202009-06-25T08:38:39.096-04:002009-06-25T08:38:39.096-04:00"You guys still think I'm human, even tho..."You guys still think I'm human, even though I don't believe in your religion, right?"<br /><br />Well, close to human anyways. :P<br />Taxonomically speaking, perhaps I could claim you as a new species and have you named after me!<br />Agalicious ExArmstrongiusxHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-41042054947655895192009-06-24T21:52:17.621-04:002009-06-24T21:52:17.621-04:00"The spirit of the law as we see things in th..."The spirit of the law as we see things in the New Covenant will change a person's heart."<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I have to call BS on this. My proof? The three Christians in the past week who have attacked me on AW. In the past WEEK.<br /><br />What was that about a tree and its fruits?? They make Christianity look like a disease-ridden, maggot-infested tree, rife with poisoned fruit.<br /><br />Say that "the spirit of the law in the new testament" changed YOUR heart, xHWA (although you seemed to me to be a good sort, even when you were in the church, so really no change there IMO), but don't extend it as a generalization to cover ALL Christians; because plainly, it does not.<br /><br />Sorry. I just had to get that off my chest. <br /><br />You guys still think I'm human, even though I don't believe in your religion, right? <br /><br />:-(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-17698778911556385362009-06-22T21:33:52.970-04:002009-06-22T21:33:52.970-04:00"I never said I keep any law.So you are also ..."I never said I keep any law.So you are also not reading me."<br /><br />My apologies if I came across as rude. That certainly was not my intent. But, in my defense, how can I read what you never said?xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-11201158605402923942009-06-22T21:32:43.449-04:002009-06-22T21:32:43.449-04:00"Every nation on earth realizes that murder ,..."Every nation on earth realizes that murder , adultery , lying , stealing etc are wrong"<br /><br />I agree with the gist of what your saying. Actually, that is an idea I reference when legalists tell me the 10 Commandments existed pre-Sinai. So, I'm glad you mentioned it.<br /><br />"Do the righteous requirement of the law and not the letter allow a person to steal? <br />I am trying to understand here."<br /><br />Literally, no (EPH. 4: 28). <br />But to help you understand why not, let me put it this way. The Old Covenant law commanded you not to steal but could not change your heart. The external influence of law was the focus. The spirit of the law as we see things in the New Covenant will change a person's heart. Would a faithful person with a repentant heart steal? No. Jesus' goodness is the focus.<br /><br />So, is a law necessary to tell a person with a loving, repentant, humble, charitable, faithful heart - inspired and lead by God's Spirit - that theft is wrong? No.<br /><br />So, same general ends, different means altogether. One is by faith unto life, the other by law unto bondage.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-19720140119023059222009-06-22T10:05:42.394-04:002009-06-22T10:05:42.394-04:00Goldwater mentions a few things that I would like ...Goldwater mentions a few things that I would like to comment on.<br /><br />That Pharaoh knew what adultery was does not prove or even offer evidence that "the" law preceded Sinai. Societies and cultures produced laws that defined what was acceptable or unacceptable in a culture, and it would be quite a stretch to assume any culture would legalize murder, or make no laws regarding such an act.<br /><br />In Romans, Paul wrote about the Gentiles who did not have "the" law and who were a law unto themselves.<br /><br />"And it still does not explain why Paul said "God forbid" about the law being nullified.<br />He still kept it. He observed the feasts , and so did Jesus , thus setting an example."<br /><br />The context from Paul is about that which is in the law that was established; righteousness through faith and not the legalities of the law. And if the argument regarding Jesus and Paul being an example regarding the things they did, then we better start marching all over the levant preaching the gospel, and going into Synagogues on sabbaths in order to preach to Jews. No, that argument doesn't hold water.<br /><br />"Even with the law written in the heart of one who has the holy spirit, they are still in the flesh and still keeping law."<br /><br />Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.<br />9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.<br /><br />The "fleshly" man of sin is buried in baptism and now dead. The Christian is a new creation.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18122238110750804356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-39665058816558956502009-06-22T04:45:30.100-04:002009-06-22T04:45:30.100-04:00I never said I keep any law.So you are also not re...I never said I keep any law.So you are also not reading me.<br />I read what you wrote, but out of habit referred to the day of creation as "sabbath".<br />It was a a day of rest for God in Genesis. He rested on that day, the 7th day. <br /><br />Every nation on earth realizes that murder , adultery , lying , stealing etc are wrong.<br />There are demonstrations of them in the bible.<br />Pharoah realizing it was wrong to have Sarah. <br />Joesph's trouble with another man's wife.<br /> Even Cain knew it was wrong to kill.<br />I believe Abraham did know basic commandments.<br />In his day it was illegal to murder, steal and etc.<br /><br />Do the righteous requirement of the law and not the letter allow a person to steal? <br />I am trying to understand here.Michael Goldwaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-77624117925120039902009-06-20T08:00:27.883-04:002009-06-20T08:00:27.883-04:00is it 5?
Why, I'll be.is it 5?<br />Why, I'll be.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-76854621924051175732009-06-19T23:23:17.281-04:002009-06-19T23:23:17.281-04:00I would like to add something to Jesus observing O...I would like to add something to Jesus observing Old Covenant:<br /><br />That contract was in effect until Jesus died. Michael, I'm sure you remember the analogy Paul used, of the wife who does not commit adultery if she marries another after her husband dies. He said this in an attempt to make it clear that once Jesus had died, they were no longer subject to the previous contract... that Husband had died, and they were now engaged to be married, (so to speak, as the wedding doesn't take place until after His return), to a Risen Jesus... a brand spankin' new contract, a better contract, a contract that was so much more glorious than the previous one (whose glory was fading). <br /><br />That is why Jesus kept the OC, it was in effect until the moment of His death.<br /><br />If you haven't read xHWA's 5 (at this point) part series on the "Common legalist Arguments", I would highly recommend it. It is well researched and written.<br /><br />God bless you in your quest for God's truth.Seeker Of Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05974355570014495622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-36676044762985024962009-06-19T16:29:22.991-04:002009-06-19T16:29:22.991-04:00Michael Goldwater
With all due respect, friend, I...Michael Goldwater<br /><br />With all due respect, friend, I've gotta disagree with you. It would seem apparent that you didn't actually read what I wrote.<br /><br />In which version of the Bible do you see the word "Sabbath" in Genesis?<br /><br />Are you seriously attempting to say the Pharaoh knew the 10 Commandments? Then please explain why apparently Abraham and Jacob did not.<br /><br />You are mistaken that those in the New Covenant are keeping the Old Covenant law. There is a new law in the New Covenant to go with the new priesthood, which the law and the prophets will both attest to, and we who keep the royal law of faith are keeping the righteous requirements of the old law, not the letter! There's a subtle but incredibly important degree of difference.<br /><br />"Until Christ comes again all but the ceremonial law is in effect and why is that so horrendous?"<br /><br />Because it's demonstrably untrue for one thing. And because you don't appear to understand the scope of what you're claiming for another. <br />(GAL. 5: 2-4) 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.<br /><br />Show me which verse(s) you're referencing to make your claims that the other laws are in effect. I've already written 4 studies to make my claim, which you appear not to have read at all.<br /><br />If you claim to keep the law, then I ask you why do you not even attempt to keep the whole law, as you are indebted to do? There are hundreds of laws. If we, for sake of argument, artificially create an entity called "the ceremonial law" (a phrase I can't find in my Bibles anywhere at all), and then remove these "ceremonial" items, you are still left with more laws than you could possibly keep.<br />For example, do you travel not once but three times in the year to the "place where the Lord shall place His name", as outlined in several places but most notably Deuteronomy 16? No. Of course not. Or do you disregard false prophets like Herbert Armstrong, Ron Weinland, Gerald Flurry, et al, as you are commended in Deuteronomy 28? Most do not. Have you identified the sanctuary cities near you? Or have you forgiven debts on the Jubilee Year? Or have you blown trumpets on the Day of Atonement? Do you tithe of the field, flock, and orchard as you are commanded, or do you tithe of cash which is not mentioned in the Bible as being titheable? The list goes on....<br /><br />And as far as the "Jesus kept the Sabbath, so that means we should too" argument - think about that for a moment. Jesus paid the temple tax, do you? He had few possessions, lived off the generosity of others, and walked the countryside preaching, is that what we should do? He went to "church" in a synagogue as the Jews do, are we Jewish now too? Jesus did not go to the Gentiles (except on 2 occasions they came to Him), should we also do likewise? He had no wife... I'm not even going there. I'm certain you get the point.<br /><br />The sheer immensity of the Bible that you must disregard to make the claims that you do is mind-boggling. I would suggest that, rather than preach how others should be keeping the law, you yourself should begin keeping it. If you wish to fulfill Paul's anaolgy to Ishmael, then that's your own business. Of course I'm being facetious.<br />What I truly suggest and pray God for is that you accept the grace of Jesus Christ who died and annulled the Old Covenant that you might have life, and just enter the New Covenant!<br />God bless you and hasten you into His grace!xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-21798271980463546432009-06-19T02:53:40.699-04:002009-06-19T02:53:40.699-04:00Well, the law isn't the "Jews" law i...Well, the law isn't the "Jews" law if it was delivered pre Sinai.<br />There are some indications that it was as that the sabbath is mentioned in Genesis. Pharoah and the other king obviously knew that taking Sarah was adultery.<br />If there was no law from God then the flood was certainly just a terrible temper tantrum on his part. <br />We know that Sodom and Gemorrah predated Sinai and their ways were condemned.<br /> <br />And it still does not explain why Paul said "God forbid" about the law being nullified.<br />He still kept it. He observed the feasts , and so did Jesus , thus setting an example.<br />Until Christ comes again all but the ceremonial law is in effect and why is that so horrendous?<br />Certainly it is kept isn't it?<br />Does anyone advocate murder or bearing false witness? How about adultery.<br />Even with the law written in the heart of one who has the holy spirit, they are still in the flesh and still keeping law.<br /><br />The veil that was lifted was the separation of man from God. Christ now being the high priest who enters in daily for our sakes.Michael Goldwaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-89507285138556028102009-06-17T12:18:53.678-04:002009-06-17T12:18:53.678-04:00I was hoping to see Questeruk's comments on th...I was hoping to see Questeruk's comments on this post. I hope I haven't driven you off - which, believe me, is NOT my intent!<br /><br />If you're still reading, I want you to know that I'm proud of you for that. Not that I can teach you anything, but that you are certainly praying and studying and asking questions. VERY commendable.<br /><br />I hope that we can agree on two things:<br />1) we see Jesus Christ as our Lord and personal Savior and we confess as much before men<br />2) that my whole point it not about the law per se but about condemnation. If you really do not fall for the poison of Armstrong, which is setting yourself above others because of the law, then you and I are already in agreement.<br /><br />I've stated several times that my point is to get people to stop all the judgment and condemnation. Of others and of their selves. It may indeed be a fabulous thing to rest for a day out of the week. Maybe even a good choice to do that on Saturday. But set yourself above others because you do so, and all you've done is turned into a legalist. That's really all my point is in everything I say both here and on my former blog.<br /><br />God bless you in your studies and pursuit of Him!xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-57205362956575590932009-06-15T13:15:03.752-04:002009-06-15T13:15:03.752-04:00RedFox,
I did like it. Very much! And you're ...RedFox,<br /><br />I did like it. Very much! And you're very welcome!<br /><br />I consider myself theologically mediocre. There are people that put me to shame.<br />I very much appreciate Luc and Seeker because we each fill in things that the other needs. And that extends even to you and to other blogs like Don't Drink the Flavor Aid and such. We each have a perspective to give and a story to tell. <br /><br />I see what I do as putting out posts that give another side of the theological argument that HWA (and his ministers ever since) never allowed us to see or consider. The good thing about that is it frees you up to put out posts that I need to see, posts about PCG and LCG. And you do that VERY well, BTW! You point out the hidden errors and dig up the buried past for us to see what it is we are/were steeped in. I think what you do is very much needed. So, I thank you for your efforts!xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-62919483143172565562009-06-14T05:59:20.303-04:002009-06-14T05:59:20.303-04:00xHWA,
Your last few articles have been very fasci...xHWA,<br /><br />Your last few articles have been very fascinating and good to read. They are much more theologically technical than I could now produce. Thank you very much for your efforts.<br /><br />By the way, thanks for the link. I am glad you liked it.redfox712https://www.blogger.com/profile/16199948371019677707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-50609877740571736312009-06-11T14:51:25.356-04:002009-06-11T14:51:25.356-04:00I think that when we hear Christ, we hear both the...I think that when we hear Christ, we hear both the law and the prophets as they were intended to be heard. The veil is lifted in Christ.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-73000730935462188382009-06-11T14:40:59.649-04:002009-06-11T14:40:59.649-04:00Great observation, Elijah and Moses representing t...Great observation, Elijah and Moses representing the law and the prophets, and the significance of Jesus left standing alone.<br /><br /><i>"Hear Him!" Not, "Hear the law". Not, "Hear the prophets". But hear Christ! When the cloud dissipated, there was Jesus standing alone; the law and the prophets gone. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets!"</i><br /><br />I'm always pleased to see another analogy or type representation worked into biblical events ceremonies etc.Luchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03711073897831398677noreply@blogger.com