Let's talk about 'Yahweh...LORD.'
As you well know, Ron tells us that '(all caps) LORD' means Yahweh. If you look at the Strong's number in your concordance for the word LORD, you will see it is H3068, which you can then look up in the Greek Hebrew Dictionary to see, it indeed, says Yahweh, spelled in Hebrew as; Yowd Hey Vav He (sounds like; yode hay vawv hay, and is read from right to left), and is defined as; self-Existent or Eternal.
Now let me ask you; what does that mean, to be self-existent? It means; having no beginning. It means not created. It means no beginning and no end. Any arguments?
Okay. Let's look at scriptures about 'Yahweh; the Self-Existent, Eternal.' Lets find out who this is. Is it the Father? Is it Jesus? Is it both the Father and the Son?
I have listed some here for your convenience, but you can find a lot more by looking '(all caps) LORD' up in your concordance and see how many times the word is used and where it is used.
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Is. 26:4 Trust in the LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal) forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.[Who is the Rock, Cornerstone? Jesus.]
Is. 26:21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.
[Who comes to punish the people? Not the Father, but Jesus.]
Is. 27:12 In that day the LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal) will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered up one by one.
13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
[Who is it who comes to do the threshing? Jesus does. Who will be worshiped on the holy mountain in Jerusalem in that day when the great trumpet sounds? Jesus.]
Is. 29:6 the LORD Almighty will come with thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest and flames of a devouring fire.
[Again, Who comes? Not the Father. Jesus does, Yahweh.]
Ho.2:16 "In that day," declares the LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal), "you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.' [This is Yahweh, an existing God (I say this because Ron says only the Father existed at this time), who is called 'master' & he is saying that the day is coming when he will be called 'husband.' Who is the husband? Jesus, Yahweh.]
18 In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety.
19 I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion. [Who is the groom? Who does the bride marry? Jesus, not the Father!]
20 I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the LORD.
Ho. 13:4 "But I am the LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal) your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. [Who is the Savior? Jesus is.]
5 I cared for you in the desert, in the land of burning heat. [So, this Yahweh, Jesus was with them in the desert, like 1Co. 10:4 says, yet Ron denies.]
Joel 2: 11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it? [Who thunders at the head of his army? Jesus does.]
Joel 3:1 In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
...8 The LORD has spoken. [Who brings them to Jehoshaphat and enters into judgment against them? Jesus does, Yahweh. And in the following verse Jesus tells us who does the judging.]
Jn. 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, [So, again, we see that Jesus does the judging and that the speaker is (Joel 3:8) Yahweh/Jesus.]
Jer. 23:5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal). [In this case, the Father], "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal) Our Righteousness.
[Who is the righteous branch? Jesus is. What will he be called? Yahweh Our righteousness. Which Yahweh? The Son.]
Jn. 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.[Here, Jesus speaks of RETURNING.]
He. 1:2 ...his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. [Here we are told the Son made the universe.]
Re. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. [Who is coming? Jesus is.]
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. [Jesus says here, he is the Alpha & the Omega, the First & the Last. What does that mean to be the Alpha & the Omega?]
16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. [Off subject but, interesting; the water of life is a free gift.]
Ps. 96:13 they will sing before the LORD (Yahweh, the self-existent, eternal), for he comes, he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples in his truth. [Who judges? Jesus does. Who does this say comes? Yahweh, Jesus.]
Is. 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. [The speaker identifies himself as the First and the Last, and then goes on to say;]
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. [Here, this speaker says he laid the foundations of the earth and spread out the heavens. Who is this speaker, aside from the creator and the First and the Last? He identifies himself further in the following verse;]
This is an unshakable case for Jesus also being Yahweh, and not just the Father.
It is true; Jesus is Self-Existent, Eternal. He did not have a beginning. He was not created. Remember the scripture I gave you in the previous post "Did Jesus Have A Beginning?"
Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, [Yahweh (H3068 Eternal, Self-Existent] "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. So.... If Jesus had a beginning... a God WAS formed!
Again, this is an unshakable case for Jesus also being Yahweh, and not just the Father. It is true; Jesus is Self-Existent, Eternal. He did not have a beginning. He was not created.Do you believe your Bible? What are you afraid of?
DID JESUS HAVE A BEGINNING? (RePost)
Posted by Seeker Of Truth in 2008 GFW, Antichrist, Bereans, can God die, Did Jesus Have A Beginning?, false prophet, Holy Spirit, Israel, Ron Weinland, Yahweh
I am reposting this article. However, it differs from the original in that there are a few alterations and additions. I will follow up with a related article on July 7TH.
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It is my hope that those who believe that, or are not yet sure if, Ron Weinland is a prophet or that what he teaches is truth will do as the Bereans did, to check the scriptures to see if what he says is true. My hope also, is that you will follow my suggestions in the box below.
I strongly suggest the use of an Interlinear (original language the scriptures were written in), and a Strong’s Dictionary for word definitions. Without one, Bible study is greatly diminished. You can get them for New and Old Testament, although Old Testament is difficult to find and costly. A New/Old Testament set costs approximately seventy some dollars.
For those who may not be familiar: (G2064) (H3068) This is a reference to the Greek (G) or Hebrew (H) word in the interlinear and the Strongs number assigned to it for easier locating in the Strongs Dictionary for the definition of the Greek or Hebrew word.
I recommend you not only look at the scriptures listed here, but research the subject thoroughly by finding a lot more scriptures on your own. It's not a good idea to limit yourself to the verses given you by the person presenting you their beliefs.
Below, my comments, that are mixed in with verses, are bracketed: [...].
First, Ron claims that Jesus is not Yahweh and also that those who teach this are mistaken. I have scripture that says otherwise. Why does it matter? Because he uses this lie to assist in the denial of Christ having always existed.
I will open with,
2Jn. 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming (G2064 having come) in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. V.8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. V.10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. V.11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Ron dismisses the truth of:
Jn.4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of god; Every spirit (G4151 The rational soul) that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
He says this scripture is NOT about a self existent eternal Jesus coming to earth in the form of a flesh body, rather about Jesus dwelling in our flesh. This is a lie! When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, it is quite clear, and this scripture is not one of them! Ron claims people just don't understand the bible, then proceeds to explain what the scripture 'REALLY' means! I'll make an entry later, that covers the topic of whether or not we must be taught by others (clergy), as opposed to the Holy Spirit.
Why say he came in FLESH if he had a beginning? It would be stating the obvious. Anyone born, is of the FLESH. However, if God had been made flesh, it then makes sense to state it. Moreover, why would scripture mention anyone denying Jesus’ Spirit dwelling in us? Are there any scriptures you have seen that talk about people that don’t acknowledge Jesus’ Spirit dwelling in us? I haven’t seen any. When the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, it is quite evident!
I won’t take the stance that he has: 2008—God’s Final Witness, Page51,
'I am simply to state the truth as it is. I do not have to spend endless hours defending it, debating it or expounding upon it. The truth is simply the truth…' (Bold his).
Rather, my stance is 1Pe.3:15….”Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”
This is my aim here. To offer the proofs of my belief statements.When I first began listening to Ron and heard his questionable teachings, I spent ten months searching scriptures to see if what he said in his sermons and books were true. I found many of his teachings to contradict the Bible!
Jesus, also, is called Yahweh
If you have an interlinear you will see that Jer. 23:5-6 Is talking about Jesus and that in v.6 it says the name he will be called by is the LORD our Righteousness.
Two things; * Ron explains: that LORD, all caps, in the bible, is the word Yahweh (H3068 Eternal, Self-Existent) which is true - see your interlinear,
* and that only the Father is called Yahweh and that Jesus is not. However, this verse says otherwise. Verse 5 and 6 are talking of the coming of Jesus in the flesh. It says in v.6 he will be called Yahweh.
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.
Zec.2:8 For this is what the LORD (G3068 Yahweh-Eternal; self-existent) says: After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations… [The Father sends the Son, the Son doesn’t send the Father. These two verses make it quite clear that they are both called Yahweh.]
9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me.
God made flesh
Now, we see in 1Tim. 3:16 [if you have an interlinear you will not be held back in your studies, and you will see this verse says,] God was manifested in flesh. [If you have a concordance, you may be able to find these translations in the back of it. The Strong's number for the words are as
follows]: v.16 He [actual Greek word translates; God (G2316)], appeared [translates; Manifested (G5319)] in a body [translates; flesh (G4561).]
If you don't have an interlinear but have a concordance that provides the Strong's Numbers, you can use it to find the original word and definitions in the back. However I prefer a Greek, Hebrew dictionary.
Php. 2:5-8 {Need interlinear to translate properly} says; v.6 Who, subsisting (G5225) in form of (G3444) God, did not consider equality with God to be plunder (G725) [i.e., something he should grasp and not let loose of], v.7 but emptied (G2758) himself [became flesh, no longer spirit], taking the very nature of a servant [did not come to be served but to serve] being made in human likeness. V.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death [if you are flesh you die, that’s obedience to death]– even death on the cross.
If he was created, had a beginning, why say he was made in human likeness? Anyone born is in human likeness. If he was created, what did he empty himself of? If he was created, why say he was found in appearance as a man? What other appearance is there for a human? If he was created, what did he humbled himself of? If he was created, how did he become obedient to death? Are not ALL HUMANS obedient to death? Is there anyone who can defy death?
Obviously, we are all familiar with;
Jn. 1:4 the word became flesh. And,
Rev. 19:13 his name is the word of God.
So, do we ignore these scriptures and believe when Ron says the 'word' was the Father's spoken word and NOT a being who became flesh?
2 Cor. 8:9 talks about him giving up his spirit body for a flesh one, it says; Jesus was rich [spirit/eternal], yet for your sakes he became poor [flesh], so that you through his poverty [flesh body] might become rich [gain eternal life through his sacrifice].
1 Jn. 4:2 Jesus has come, (G2064 having come) in the flesh... Ron says this is talking about Jesus dwelling in us! Absolutely false. When the Bible talks about the Father or Jesus dwelling in us, it is quite obvious. This is not about that, but about Jesus having come in a flesh body; giving up his richness (spirit body) to be poor (flesh body) for our salvation.
What love, for our God to give up His glorious spirit body and take on the form of a flesh body, a body that does what our lowly human bodies do, sweat, go to the bathroom etc., Like any great leader, He left His 'desk' to be in the 'trenches' with His 'men', and in that human form He felt the pain of physical torture to the death, to save a bunch of unworthy humans! Truly, there is no greater love!
He gave up his spirit body and became flesh, relying on the Father to raise his flesh body from death and return him to the Glory he had before!
1Cor.15:47-49 says Adam was of the dust of the earth [flesh], Jesus the Lord (G2962 Kurios) out of heaven [spirit]. As was the earthly [flesh] man (Adam), so are those who are of the earth ; and as is the man from heaven, [spirit], so are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly [flesh] man (Adam), so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven [spirit].
Jn. 6:38-42 Note: v.38 For I have come down from heaven. V.41 The Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “ I am the bread that came down from heaven.” V.42 They said, “Isn’t this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he say ‘I came down from heaven’?” [What were they upset about? That God caused a virgin to birth him or that he claims to have come from heaven?]
Jn.6:62 What if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before?
Ep.4:9 What does “ascended” mean, except that he also descended…
All things made by him
Col. 1:16-18 is talking about Jesus and says; for by him all things were created. And also the following scripture;
Jn. 1:10…the world was made through him…[How can something be created though him if he hadn’t been born yet because he had a beginning? Are we going to call this a metaphor or say 'it is BEING created through him everyday'? The bible CLEARLY is not saying that. We know it is speaking of THE creation.]
Preexistence
Jesus and John say:
Jn. 1:15 [Jesus was before John the Baptist (who was born six months before Jesus)].
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'Jn.6:62 What if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before?
Jn.8:56-59 Note v.58 Jesus answered; before Abraham was born, I AM! [(I AM = God), he was God before Abraham was born, not became God after Abraham was born!] (Note:
Ex.3:14 This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.”)
V.59 [They picked up stones to stone him for this statement! Why?! Because he was claiming to ‘HAVE BEEN before Abraham’, i.e. God with no beginning!]
Jn.16:27-31 …the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. V.28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. V.29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. V.30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.” V.31 “You believe at last!” Jesus answered.
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I am going to break this down:
v.28 I came (G1831 exerchoma- come forth, come out, depart out of) from (G3844 para- near, from beside, at/in the vicinity of) the Father (G3962 Pater- father) and entered (G1659 eleutho- liberate / G2064 eltho- to come, to go) the world (G2889 kosmos- world); now (G3825 palin- once more, again) I am leaving (G863 aphiemi- send, send forth), the world and going (G4198 poreuomai- traverse, travel, remove) back to (G4314 pros- forward, toward – the side of, near to, the related destination) the Father.”
Therefore, it says:
‘I left the Fathers side, liberated to come into the world. Again, I leave the world and, travel to the Fathers side.
Jn. 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. [Again, how can the Father create a universe through an unborn son that doesn't exist yet?
And a quick note for those who may ask 'how can He inherit what is already his?' What makes you think he already owned it? Does your child own now, the family Bible you intend to pass onto them one day? No, it still belongs to you.
Note:
Jeremiah 10:16 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the tribe of his inheritance—
the LORD Almighty is his name.
[Israel is Yahweh's inheritance. This argues a couple of things;
1) the 'how can He inherit what He already owns?' question, is not a good argument to try to prove Jesus had a beginning, because this scripture says Yahweh inherits. Meaning; if only the Father is Yahweh, then the Father inherits...so this question, in regards to Jesus, doesn't hold water.
2)Who is the Portion of Jacob? Jesus is, and the One who is the Portion of Jacob is the Maker of all things, and His name is Yahweh. Meaning; Jesus is the Maker of all things and, Jesus is Yahweh also, not just the Father. Following, are a couple more;]
Zechariah 2:12 The LORD [Yahweh] will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem.
Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance.]
Heb. 1:10 [Now, go over this chapter carefully] v.8 But about the Son he says...V.10 He also says, in the beginning O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Ron explains this away, saying that v.10 is about the Father creating. If that were true, this sentence would read something like this: The Father also says, "In the beginning O Me the Father laid the foundations… [The Father is not talking to himself, he’s talking to Jesus.]
Jg.6:11-14 [We know that LORD is Yahweh, and we see here that the angel of the LORD visits Gideon, and we see in v.11 that this messenger is Yahweh. So this ‘angel of the LORD is God and if only the Father existed at that time, as Ron says, then these verses are calling the Father, the Messenger (angel means messenger) of himself. Did the Father send himself to give a message to Gideon? No, he sent Jesus.]
1co.10:4 …drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them and that rock was Christ.
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
[This statement; ' accompanied them' is information Paul got from Ex. 13:21! (below), note the next three scriptures.]
Ex.3:8 (v.3-8) So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land….[Who came down to rescue them? Who accompanied them? Jesus, the Christ, as we see in the above scripture. Who was in the burning bush then? Well, I'd say Jesus, the Christ.]
Ex.13:21 By day the LORD [Yahweh] went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud..and by night in a pillar of fire.. [Yes, ahead of them was Jesus.]
Jg.2:1The angel of the LORD [messenger of Yahweh, Father and Son are each called Yahweh,] went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said,” I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers.
[The individual who is speaking says He brought them out of Egypt...this individual is the messenger of Yahweh. So this messenger of Yahweh brought them out of Egypt and led them to the land that this messenger of Yahweh swore to give to their forfathers. Did a created angel swear to give them that land? No.]
Who returns to fight and stand on the Mount of Olives?
Zec.14:3-9 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the mount of Olives… [If “LORD” is Yahweh and if only the Father is Yahweh, as Ron teaches, then this would be saying the Father, and not Jesus, will fight and stand on the Mt. We know this is not the case.]
How many Gods are there?
Ron also explains away (Gen.1:1) In the beginning God (H430 Elohiym) created the heavens and…. The New Strong’s Complete Dictionary of Bible Words, says: (H430 Elohiym; Plural of H433 Elowahh, eloahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article –the-) of the supreme God).
Ron also points to (Is.45:18)…”I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Let’s look more closely at this.
In (V.1) we see he is addressing Cyrus, who is to be born in the future (v.13), telling him of His plans for him (v.14-16). Saying that Egypt and Cush will come to him in chains and, will be his. They will bow before him and plead with him, saying, “Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.”(V.16) All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced… (V.18) …”I am the LORD, and there is no other. This is in reference to idols.
Does it matter? Is it important?
Ro. 10:1-3 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer, to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. V.2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. [But their zeal is not based on knowledge. Interesting statement.] V.3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. [Righteousness comes through faith, not by works.]
2Jn :7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming (G2064 having come) in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. V.8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
V.9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.V.10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. V.11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
So what's the deal? Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus having come in the flesh is the deceiver and the antichrist! You don't really believe this scripture is warning us against someone who denies that Jesus dwells in our flesh, do you?
In Closing:
As Ron says in his book 2008—God’s final witness, on page 46:
“If some doctrine or belief in God is a lie, then by its very definition it cannot be true or from God. People who embrace any of the thousands of ‘Christian’ beliefs need to know what their church teaches, where their beliefs originate, and whether they truly come from God. If they find lies, then they must change or willingly submit to what they know is false, and thereby be guilty of opposing the one true God.”
[And I know you are aware this doesn't exclude Ron.]
He asks, on page 50 in regard to Sunday worship: Why do they feel they must defend this doctrine themselves by twisting and misrepresenting scriptures so that they seemingly indicate that there is some validity in …
[whatever the subject may,] (underline and bold, mine).
I ask this same question of those who believe the biblical contradictions that Ron teaches. Contradictions that require twisting and, misrepresentation of scriptures so that they seemingly indicate that there is some validity in what he teaches. Contradictions that one can easily see with:
- simple study of scripture, (as the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true, Ac.17:11), And
- a desire to see the truth regardless of the source and,
- a willingness to not so readily defend a doctrine that may- by discovery of any particular scripture- be a lie, because you think, or thought your original source or belief to be correct.
One final thought/scripture to leave you with;
Isaiah 43:10
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, [Yahweh (H3068 Eternal, Self-Existent]"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
So.... If Jesus had a beginning... a God WAS formed!
Someone is NOT telling you the TRUTH!
And God is no liar.
Ben-Ariel's Religious Bull From Babylon
Posted by CW(contributing writer) in Ben-Ariel, Herbert W Armstrong, holy days, Old/New Covenant Law, Ron Weinland, Sabbath, Worldwide Church of God, Yahweh
Here is another example of what I used to be, not by my own choice;
Thinking everyone else was so stupid, and always being the odd man out, I applied the analogy of Noah to my venerable leader, and of course, to myself. Noah being ridiculed while he built the ark was familiar fodder for my own fantasy. I lived in a world on the other side of the looking glass where the facts somehow didn’t line up with everyone else’s, and certainly not with the Bible. Here’s the example; an excerpt from an article by David Ben-Ariel; HWA was ahead of his time.
1) “Why don't you just be honest and admit you hate Herbert W. Armstrong because he spoke the plain truth that CANNOT be refuted?
2) that your traditional Churchianity is merely baptized paganism the Bible condemns as part of Mystery Babylon?
3) For exposing your SUNday as a pagan counterfeit of the biblical Sabbath; your pagan holidays you've sought with your replacement theology to replace the biblical festivals; that sheeple like you bleat they're born again and don't have a clue what they're talking about, since we're born again at the Resurrection only; that God is not the sadist traditional Christians make Him out to be;
4) that the meek inherit the Earth - not float off to Heaven; that you're not an immortal soul, eternal life is a gift from God; the wicked will be destroyed, ashes under our feet;
5) we can become literal God-beings, members of the Kingdom-Family of God?
6) Why don't you just confess and forsake your sins of murderous hatred against HWA for slaughtering your "sacred cow" and exposing it as religious bull from Babylon?
[Rather than repeating, I'll address the points & you can look back at the list to see the subject's details.]
Point one; Herbert can't be refuted: Herbert and Weinland alike follow legends and rumors and present them as fact. His ideas have been refuted, and his corner stone philosophy of British Israelism should cause humiliation to any who continue to buy it; but like the naked Emperor, these people are oblivious to the fact that they are exposed.
Point two; Christian churches are false: This idea comes from the book, The Two Babylon's or Papal Worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife, by Rev. Alexander Hislop. HWA used the presumption that the Catholic Church is the great whore; and the extra-Biblical belief in church eras, taken from the letters to the churches in Revelation. The lesson of the churches imperfection contained therein needed to be discredited, and replaced by the idea of the church as being a single physical body of believers under a single ruler; himself, instead of many united by one spirit. From Herbert's view only one church, (defined by being under a single administration, and teaching Old Testament law) could exist at any given time because the Bible speaks of one church and one body, so it follows from his purely carnal way of thinking that these churches couldn't have existed simultaneously over the ages, but could only be types, serially, through time. HWA's presumption is the basis of his proof of the church era theory. This provided HWA justification for his authority, and it's the same excuse used by Weinland and all the other disciples of Herbert.
The churches in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 existed simultaneously at the time of the writing and they all lacked perfection. But they had the most important possession; they had the testimony of Jesus. The churches existed simultaneously then, and the archetypes exist now. Just like children have varying degrees of understanding and kinds of faults, so do Gods children. Herbert had nothing but a presumption base on a physical minded perspective of what, "one church, and one body," means. The churches are united as one by the Holy Spirit, not by legalistic perfection, or singularity of administration. The lesson of these churches is that imperfection does not make them false churches. There's no such thing as a perfect person, and therefore, no such thing as a perfect church.
I'd like to touch briefly on a subject that alone could use up many pages. Ancient theological books such as the Vedas and the Shasta-Bad are older than the Hebrew Bible, and they contain remarkably similar accounts, and allusions to the birth of a coming Redeemer. Even the roots of Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma, appear to have their roots in accounts of Noah and his sons. Consider the Magi who saw the signs of the newborn Messiah, and came to find Him, as recorded in the gospels. These were most likely Persians, and philosophical descendants of the Egyptian; Hermes-Thoth, their original lawgiver. (Not Hermes the Greek god. To Herbert, names with similarity in phonemes meant synonymy in person or nation etc.)
These Magi had some revelation from God that, at least in part, proved true. Here's a quote from Hermes from the Pymander; "Thought is God the Father; the Word is the Son; they are indissoluble in eternity, and their union is life." This was written approximately 2800 years before Christ, as is the following in the beginning sentence of the Shasta-bad, the oldest of the Magi's sacred books; "God is one, creator of all things, the sphere of the universe, without beginning, without end. God governs everything by providence and by unalterable laws. Seek not for the essence and nature of the Eternal which is one, indivisible, ineffable: your seeking would be in vain and sinful. It is enough that day by day, night by night, you should adore his power, his wisdom, his goodness, in all his works." This could be right out of the pages of your bible.It's also interesting that in the ancient writings, and inscriptions,the Magi described God as, "He is because he is," the same description God gave Moses to use, to identify who had sent him to them. It seems that people generally understood who's name this was.
I suggest to you that the ancients had knowledge of the plan of God, and you can find remnants of this knowledge within pagan religions. In other words, pagan religions borrowed from the knowledge revealed by God. As an example; similarities between Christian and pagan symbology, of a mother and child's significance in human salvation, are from a root of revealed truth, and not originally pagan.
Point three; Sunday is a counterfeit sabbath: "Sunday worship is worshiping the sun god," say the disciples of Armstrong. These people are applying the Old Covenant law to what day's people keep, and they expect to not look ridiculous. The Sabbath is Saturday (Saturn's day; are they then, worshiping Cronus the Roman god associated with Saturn? Not anymore than Sunday worshipers are worshiping the Roman Sun god. Everyday of the week has a Roman god assigned to it.); the New Covenant has no Sabbath command. There are no days sanctioned in the New Covenant, or they would be spelled out in the contract; and there are no days one could institute, that wouldn’t fall on a day without some pagan name on it. Writings of the early church refer to Sunday as the eighth day. Eight is the number of new beginnings. It was always on a Sunday (the eighth day), when the wave sheaf offering was made, according to the Mosaic Law. In other words, it’s the day Jesus presented himself to the Father after His crucifixion. The day is not any more polluted than Saturday is polluted by worshiping God on Saturn's day.
In the Old Covenant, to eat meat offered to an idol was a strict no-no. You could be defiled by contact in a number of situations. This is not the case with the New Covenant. Paul's view was strictly modern; 1Cor 8:4 “We know that an idol is nothing at all.” The meat is just meat, but the actual sacrificing is a different story; 1Cor10:18-20 “Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the alter. 19 Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or an idol is anything? 20 No, but we know the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, I don’t want you to be participators with demons.” It’s the same thing with a day, unless, on the day you worship some demon, a day is just a day. 1Cor 10:25 "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." In spite of what HWA, Ben-Ariel or Ron Weinland say, no one is worshiping Nimrod on Sunday.
Herbert defined true worship by Holy Days, Sabbaths and Feasts. This is, strictly, an Old Covenant view. What a day might have been in the past, can’t hurt you. Some churches try to get kids to come to church and do something Jesus-oriented instead of going out and participating in Halloween. They give it a different name. It’s a replacement, it’s not Halloween. And because it’s on the same day doesn’t mean demons are being memorialized. The kids who might feel left out, no longer do, so the temptation is neutralized. All I can say is; more power to them.
We were never allowed to wear a cross, in OWCG, because of its pagan origins; but what was a horrific symbol of evil became the instrument of our salvation. Misconceptions can pollute your mind, but your mind can’t be polluted if you are like Paul who said; 1Cor 2:2 “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” We used to hold people in contempt who expressed themselves like this, just like Weinland does today. I wouldn’t doubt that Paul might have worn a cross. Gal 6:14 “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Point four; no one goes to heaven: These people seem to be completely ignorant of what churches teach. I’ve heard plenty of them refer to the rulership of Jesus and his saints on earth. The Armstrongists get so riled up and sometimes virtually scream, “no one goes to heaven,” but even Satan went before the throne of God in the book of Job. Is a child of God less than the devil? And what of the numberless multitude in the book of Revelation? They're clearly in heaven. Does it even matter? Old covenant people were defiled by a host of rather innocuous things. These Armstrong worshipers get bent out of shape by non-salvation issues, and I guess it provides an excuse to be self-righteously indignant.
Point five; the elect of God become gods: The idea that you shall become like God was Satan’s first lie. Shouldn’t that embarrass people who one up the devil by believing they become God. The scriptures speak of human kind becoming the children of God, apparently this isn’t enough for them.
God has many names in the Old Testament: Hebrew; El: mighty one or a deity; Elah: object of worship, H430 Elohim: gods in the ordinary sense, occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates, and sometimes as a superlative: angels, great, judges, mighty; Eloah: object of worship; Yahweh: self existent or eternal; G2316 Theos: a deity, (with G3580) the supreme divinity; fig. a magistrate.
The question is, which of these definitions of God do these people want to be? The Bible uses the phrase, “you are gods,” three times, in Psalm 82:6, and Jesus repeats the verse twice in John 10:34-35. The Greek has only the one word for God, be it in the greater or the lesser sense, so any Hebrew name of God is converted to the one, which is less precise. It just happens that in the verse Jesus quoted the word god is from H430 Elohim which can be applied to a judge. Why would any one extrapolate from this that they can become God in the greater sense. This little scrap is all Herbert had to formulate one of his foundational teachings; and this is supposed to be proof? Paul said, 1Cor6:3“Don’t you know that we will judge angels,” elohim and theos both apply, since both can mean a "judge".
The definitions of God are; All Mighty, All Knowing, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Creator, Eternal, Love (the personification of), Ruler of the Universe, and "I am". There's not a single one of them that we can cast a shadow upon, He can share some limited aspect of his qualities but, we will never match his definition, so we will never be God as the English word is defined, since it has no applications for anything less than the Almighty.
Gods names are all descriptions of Himself; And God can make us similar to himself in some remote fashion; he judges and so can we; he rules and so can we; But to be self existent, no; to be eternal (meaning both forwards and backwards), no; and who is arrogant enough to think that they should become an object of worship, apparently HWA did, and his disciples do today. I have literally heard it stated from the pulpit that; "as a god, you will be entitled to worship."
And they like to point the finger screaming, “You pagans!” but how often in the books of the prophets does God say, “I am God, I will not give my glory to another.” God says in Isa 43:10 “Before me no God was formed, nor shall there be one after me.” David Ben-Ariel would have us believe Herbert over the Bible. The disdain that Ben-Ariel has for people, because they don’t believe they will become objects of worship, is kind of sick.
Point six; those who are anti HWA are filled with murderous hate: Just like Herbert, Ben-Ariel forms opinions by jumping to conclusions, forming wildly disproportional ideas from the scantest of evidence. "People, who are anti-Armstrong, have a murderous hatred," you say. This demonstrates classic OWCG paranoia. Sure, I know, the devil is at work in everyone who doesn’t except his BS. My problem is, I don’t like to be lied to. That really ticks me off. I don’t like the fact that so much of my life was wasted on Herbert’s nonsense. And I don’t want anybody to be where I was. I don’t want anyone to follow any of Herbert’s Mini-Me's, and that includes David Ben-Ariel and Ron Weinland. It actually would have been nice if Herbert could have repented before he died. There’s no way he could have made up for the damage he wreaked, but Jesus can, and Jesus did die for anyone who repents.
DID JESUS HAVE A BEGINNING?
Posted by Seeker Of Truth in 2008 GFW, Antichrist, Bereans, can God die, Did Jesus Have A Beginning?, false prophet, Holy Spirit, Israel, Jesus, Ron Weinland, Yahweh
It is my hope that those who believe that, or are not yet sure if, Ron Weinland is a prophet or that what he teaches is truth will do as the Bereans did, to check the scriptures to see if what he says is true. My hope also, is that you will follow my suggestions in the box below.
I strongly suggest the use of an Interlinear (original language the scriptures were written in), and a Strong’s Dictionary for word definitions. Without one, Bible study is greatly diminished. You can get them for New and Old Testament, although Old Testament is difficult to find and costly. A New/Old Testament set costs approximately seventy some dollars.
For those who may not be familiar: (G2064) (H3068) This is a reference to the Greek (G) or Hebrew (H) word in the interlinear and the Strongs number assigned to it for easier locating in the Strongs Dictionary for the definition of the Greek or Hebrew word.
I recommend you not only look at the scriptures listed here, but research the subject thoroughly by finding a lot more scriptures on your own. It's not a good idea to limit yourself to the verses given you by the person presenting you their beliefs.
Below, my comments, that are mixed in with verses, are bracketed: [...].
First, Ron claims that Jesus is not Yahweh and also that those who teach this are mistaken. I have scripture that says otherwise. Why does it matter? Because he uses this lie to assist in the denial of Christ having always existed.
I will open with,
2Jn. 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming (G2064 having come) in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person i