Showing posts with label resurrection. Show all posts

Accepting Jesus On the Death-Bed & the 1st Resurrection  

Posted by Seeker Of Truth in , ,

Let me start, first, by stating my view on the resurrections. I hear some people refer to 1st, 2nd and 3rd resurrections (I've heard my Mom mention it on occasion). I don't really get that. I guess the deal is; Jesus was the 1st and then follows the 2nd when he returns and then the 3rd- being the GWTJ.

I, personally don't view it that way, and, so some of you don't get confused when you read this, let me tell how I do view it; People were resurrected before Jesus was; Lazarus, a little girl who had died, someone who, while listening to a 'sermon,' fell asleep in a window and fell to his death.

As I see it; Jesus is returning, and two resurrections follow; one at His return, the other after the millennial period (the GWTJ). Re.20:6 "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." Okay, now you will know what I'm talking about.


Ron Weinland teaches that a person cannot accept Jesus on their death-bed and be in the first resurrection. He says we must be tested and refined first (for the individual on the death-bed, this would be after they're raised in the second resurrection). He uses as an example; Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Ge.22:12 "Now I know you." I don't believe for a second, that God doesn't know our character.
First; I think that was for our benefit and for Abraham's (to know if he would actually follow through). God knew! Just like He knew Lucifer would fall; Adam & Eve would sin...

Second; Jesus told one of the thieves on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise. The thief didn't get down off the cross and begin a process of testing and refinement. He died there on that cross. He had already lived a life opposed to God/love and realized on the cross, next to Jesus, that there was a better way and believed Jesus. He had faith in Jesus. He didn't climb down and begin a maturing process. Jesus had promised him paradise. Not the 2nd resurrection with those who hadn't believed, but the 1st. Let's find out why this is true.

We know what Ron says, now let's see what God has to say on the matter:


Jn. 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
[So, obviously the Father called him and revealed to him that Jesus was the Messiah.]

Mt. 16:15-17 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Does the Father call someone for the 2nd resurrection? No. He knows the character of those He calls, those He predestined from the beginning;
Ep 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will".
:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will..."

That thief accepted Jesus on his 'death-bed' and was promised to be with Jesus in paradise. Paradise is not in flesh and blood in the 2nd resurrection.
Despite what Ron teaches, new believers will be in the 1st resurrection.

Ron says, himself, in the sermon Prophesied Truths, (near the middle) that; "God sees to it that we go through the things we need to go through in this life in order to come to the point we need to come to, to come through it all. And that means hardship and it means difficult..."
Therefore, the thief had also! God has ALREADY done the work (making sure we experience what is necessary). We were PREDESTINED!
Ga.3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
:7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
[The thief believed and became a child of Abraham]

Jn. 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
[The thief believed and became one of God's children]

Ro. 8:17 "Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ..."
[Do co-heirs with Christ get the 2nd resurrection?]

Ro. 8:29 "He FOREKNEW us and PREDESTINED us to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus."
:33 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies."

Mt. 15:13 "He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots." [It is quite obvious, then, that the thief was one of those plants planted by the Father.]

Jn. 10:9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved." [Including a thief on a cross.]
:14, 16 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
[The thief knew He was the Messiah]
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." [The thief knew His voice.]

Jn. 10:28 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand." [Does that sound like someone in the 2nd resurrection, where all are raised into flesh and blood bodies?]

Now let's look at the parable of the workers in the vineyard. We'll break it down so we can understand how the thief on the cross (or any new believer, death-bed or not) will receive the same thing a long-time believer will receive.

Mt. 20:1-16 "For the kingdom of heaven IS LIKE...
V1 a landowner [God] who went out early in the morning to hire men [call men to Him] to work in his vineyard [become believers]

v2 He agreed to pay them a denarius [give them eternal life] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

v3 About the 3rd hour [a time after others have already been called to come to God] he went out and saw others standing in the market place doing nothing.

v4 He told them, you also go and work in my vineyard [God called them], a I will pay you whatever is right [give them eternal life].

v5 So they went. [They accepted the call of God]. He went out again about the 6th & 9th hour [called others at a later time than others who had already been called] and did the same thing.

v6 About the 11th hour [little time left] he went out and found still others standing around [those who hadn't been called yet]. He asked them 'why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

v7 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered [they had not been called by God, had not received His message]. He said to them ' you also go work in my vineyard.'

v8 When evening came, [the time to receive from God the gift of eternal life] the owner [God] of the vineyard said to his foreman [Jesus], 'call the workers and pay them their wages [give them eternal life], beginning with the last ones hired [the last ones called by God the Father].

v9 The workers who were hired about the 11th hour [called late, later, last, at the last minute] came & each received a denarius [eternal life].

v10 So when those came who were hired first [called by God the Father early on & therefore, long-time believers], they expected [confidently believed] to receive more [something better & beyond the "newcomers"]. But each on them also received a denarius [the same eternal life, the same resurrection].

v11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the land owner [God the Father].

v12 "These men who were hired last [believers for the shortest length of time] worked only one hour." [Haven’t believed as long as we have] they said, "and you [God] have made them equal to us [as if there is no difference between long-time, and short-time believers] who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day." [Trials and persecutions that accompany the duration of belief].

v13 But he answered one of them, "Friend, I'm not being unfair to you [ripping you off]. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?" [Weren't you told you would receive eternal life in the first resurrection?]

v14 "Take your pay and go. I [God] want to give the man who was hired last [called last] the same as I gave you [eternal life in the 1st resurrection].

v15 "Don't I have the right to do what I want with my money? [My gift of eternal life]. Or are you envious [wanting more/better] because I am generous?"

v16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
[It seems to me that the thief is first. But isn't Ron teaching that the first will be first. That is; his church and some from history?]

If you understand analogies then you can understand parables and this one isn't difficult to understand. Now, on the issue of the first resurrection as opposed to the 2nd, let’s consider this...

Your a new believer, [alive and well, or on the death bed], or the thief on the cross. God the Father has called you. You are now and heir, co-heirs with Christ. You are now the bride of Jesus. When does the second resurrection take place? After the wedding! After the millennial period! So what resurrection are believers going to be in? Believers are the bride of Christ.

Re.20:6 "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." [Because they are now immortal (not eternal) spirit beings].

Ez. 37, Re.20:6 [Those in the second resurrection are not spirit beings, but are raised in flesh bodies, and take part in the great white throne judgment. This is no place for believers - new, or not.]

1Pe. 4:17 "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who don't obey the gospel of God?"
[If you're a believer, you are the family of God and thus, are being judged now, not at the GWTJ of the second resurrection].

1Co. 11:31-32 "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." [We are being judged now, not at the GWTJ].

1Co. 15:23 (All believers are resurrected and/or changed at His return.) "All will be made alive. Each in his own turn...then, when He comes, those who belong to Him."
[Do new believers belong to Him or not?]

Jn.6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but, raise them up at the last day.
:40 For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day."

1Co. 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep [die], but we will all be changed
:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of and eye, [when?], at the last trumpet.

[Long before the second resurrection.
So, no, those who believed at the last minute, on their death-bed, won't be in the second resurrection; new believers won't be in the second resurrection, or live on into the millennium. They will be in the first resurrection, where they belong - with all believers].

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When Is the Last Time You Picked Up Ron's Book (2008 GFW)?  

Posted by Seeker Of Truth in , , , , , , ,

Mike, of Don't Drink the Flavor Aid, brought up a point that has been a real burr in my saddle;
I believe WE know Ron's book; 2008 GFW, better than his MEMBERS do. Why do I say this? Because if they KNEW his book, they would realize that he is constantly back-peddling, changing time-lines, contradicting himself, and that NONE of his prophesies have happened as he SAID they would!

If you are NOT AWARE of this, you have not been going over the book! HE IS NOT JUST A MAN! By his own self-proclamation, he is God's prophet! IF he is God's prophet, NOTHING he claims will FAIL, NOTHING! Being JUST a man has nothing to do with ANYTHING! He said he is God's prophet!

I ask you again; did Moses prophesy and then wind up looking like a fool because nothing happened as he had said? No. EVERYTHING he said would happen, DID happen, because he WAS God's prophet.No, Herbert was not JUST a man, (which I will, soon, address ). Ron is not JUST a man. Ron CLAIMS he is God's PROPHET, but we are told in Deut. 18:22 "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."
If what Ron proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. Ron has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

So. As Mike pointed out; Ron YET AGAIN, has contradicted himself! In the Saturday, May 24, 2008 service; Ron said that your guys' training is NOT done!
Open your book (2008 GFW) to page 115 and read the third paragraph;
see where it says; "Seventh Seal" and "By the time this final seal [the 7th] is opened, all 144,000 whom God has called...will be fully trained..."

[The 7th seal HAS been opened - remember; Ron said the 1st Trumpet blew on April 17th, the first day of the tribulation.
Now, listen to what he said Saturday: You can download it here, compliments of Mike and listen to it again. If you're using Real Player, you will find the statement at about 1:14:00 to about 1:15:03.
"...I realize I'm still being trained for the job ahead . There are things I have to learn, there are things I have to go through yet, there are things that God is going to mold and fashion within me. Just because there's been a sealing that's taken place even for those who are going to be a part of the great resurrection here, that doesn't mean your training is over, that doesn't mean that your not gonna be growing, that doesn't mean that there are not more things that need to be molded and fashioned within you, on the contrary because of the period of time that's ahead, there's much more, that God has the ability to mold and fashion within you! Because of what you get to experience! ...if you understand what I'm saying... That'll be some of the time and some of the greater growth and molding and fashioning in your life... for what's ahead, for what place God has for you in His kingdom. It truly is. It's an astounding thing, when you see, when you understand."

So which is it? Fully trained or NOT fully trained. He can't keep it straight, because God is not giving him prophesies. I have to ask you, again, WHY do you believe RON over GOD? You are really boggling my mind! Please. Go re-read his book. No. Don't go do something else, don't read something else...pick up the book. I am challenging you.

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Who Are The 144,000?  

Posted by Seeker Of Truth in , , , , , , , , ,

  • Are there only to be 144,000 resurrected when Jesus returns?
  • Abraham’s children are as numerous as the stars. Are only 144,000 of them to be resurrected? Are there only 144,000 stars?

Ron says that the 144,000 & the great multitude are one and the same.  He says God's not calling everyone.  He says God's church is a little flock.
Alright, it was a little flock back in Jesus' day. Do you think it's STILL that little?
Mt. 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...
Jesus told His disciples to go make disciples of all nations! Was Jesus confused? Why would He say that if His church was to consist of 144,000 people?
Do you think 144,000 is little? How about 500,000? What about 1,000,000?
Well, 'big' and 'small' are relative.
Small, compared to what? Small compared to your household? Compared to your family and relatives? Small compared to your town, your state, your country? Compared to the people alive at the current time, or perhaps those from the last 1 or 200 years? Small compared to WHAT?
I'd like you to try something. Get a piece of graph paper out & mark out a square about 32 x 32 (of the small squares). That represents about 6.5 billion people (currently on the planet). Now color in one of those single little squares. That represents about 6.5 million people. WOW! That square you colored in is SO SMALL! How much of that little colored square do think totals 144,000? A little dot in the corner. What if that colored square were the number of people in the first resurrection, (6.5 million)? Wouldn't that be SMALL!? Trace out a 10 by 10 section, that's 100 squares. That represents 650 million people! Wouldn't that be small!? Look how many of the 32 x 32 squares remain. Remember this sheet represents only people alive RIGHT NOW. Now consider all who have EVER lived and ask yourself again, what "small" is. Everything is relative.
(See bottom of page to see how this is calculated).

Mt.9:37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful… [Out of the BILLIONS, or more, people who have existed and now exist, are 144,000 Plentiful? Doesn't 144,000 sound more like the number of a sheaf offering than a total harvest? See Lev.23:10 .]
Alright, next step...
Rev.7:4-8, We see here, that the 144,000 come from the 12 tribes, numbered and named specifically. [What Herbert Armstrong proclaimed as proof, was no such thing. The US is not Israel. His proof is NOT proof. It is founded in fables and legends. He just gave some scriptures and added a make-believe story for them. There is nothing in the bible that backs him up. Nothing. Why would God list 12,000 from each specifically named tribe of Israel if He was not being literal? (More on British Israelism coming soon.)]
These below, however, come from every nation, tribe, people and language. Read what it says. Trust the Holy Spirit that God GAVE YOU and read it! It doesn't need to be Saturday, and you don't need to be taught by Ron!
Rev.7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
There are two groups; the 144,000 and the great multitude: She who has a husband, (Israel, the original bride of Christ), and she who is barren and has no husband, (Gentiles, who would become part of the bride of Christ, once that door was opened by His sacrifice, making the two become one, as stated in the two scriptures below.)
Ga.4:27, Is.54:1 say that the barren woman [Gentiles, aka, anyone not an Israelite] will have more children [of God/great multitude] than the woman [Israel/144,000] who has a husband (Christ). [As Herbert always said; 'Are you getting this!?' This is HUGE!
Ignore that old programming in your head and tune in to God's word. Why did God give you the Holy Spirit in the first place? Is it incompetent? Of course not! If Jesus says; "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them", what is the reason? Is it to observe you because He can do nothing else? Is it out of His hands because it's RON'S job to do the teaching!? For crying out loud. Of course not. If you haven't already, please, read my post, Do We Need To Be Taught By Others? (Actually, all of the material on this blog connects together, and can be quite helpful.
Please, don't just read them, look up the scriptures. Really think about them. Find more scriptures. Use and interlinear if you can get your hands on one. And pray for guidance!)
If the 144,000 are literal descendants of Israel, (genetic Israel), then Ron's belief that they are the only ones in the first resurrection, means that Gentiles, (those not genetically Israel), are not included. Which means you would have to ignore the fact that God said that She who has no husband would bear the larger group, (the numberless multitude), and exclude them from the resurrection. Or, if believing the 144,000 are both Israel and Gentile, we're back to a minute group consisting of both.

    These two physical groups; a group of genetic Israelites and a group of non-genetic Israelites, become one spiritual bride of Jesus. Like the Father & the Son are One, and yet, Two, or a Husband and Wife are one.
  • When you become a believer you become a child of Abraham (Ro.9:6-8; Gal.3:6-14).
  • Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel (Ro.9:6-8 Note v.8!). [Meaning, just because one is genetically an Israelite, it's not automatic qualification. There is more to belonging to God than that.]
  • We were formerly excluded from citizenship in Israel but thanks to Christ, no longer (Ep.2:11-22; Jn.1:11-13).I do not believe that the 144,000 are the only ones in the first resurrection. I do believe that the great multitude ARE in the first resurrection, (Re.7:9). I do not believe that the Great Multitude is a group of144,000. I believe that the 144,000 are the children of "she who has a husband", and that the great multitude are the children of "the barren, desolate woman."
Gal. 4:27
For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
Are there any doubts as to what that verse means? [Galatians is a great book; my favorite.]

I believe that God IS not calling everyone, as Ron says, but that He is calling FAR MORE than 144,000, and that the great multitude are those who are not genetically from the tribes of Israel (and not everyone who is descended from Israel is Israel) and ARE in the resurrection that takes place at Jesus’ return, and are not excluded, because;
Christ made Gentiles and Israelites ONE (Ep.2:13-18). There is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile (Ro.10:12). They are one group spiritually, but two groups genetically - as a combined family of biological and adopted children. Just as in any case today, where a family adopts a child; The biological children and the adopted children are different genetically, but the same, as in, they are now one family.
You don't need to be part of a teeny tiny 'privileged' group to feel special. Don't you feel special just because God called you? Because you belong to Him?

Some of you may be familiar with this story;
Some local ministers ran an add in the paper. They would be on the court house steps, writing checks to pay for parking tickets; all you had to do was to show up and present your parking ticket, and a check for the amount of the debt would be written. Did these people have to qualify in some way? No. It was a gift. Get the picture?
You may also want to see my post, Works Vs Faith.

THE GRAPH PAPER:
The square root of 1,000 is about 32 (hence 32 squares)
6.5 million x 1000=6.5 billion
1 square is 1/1000 so 1 square=6.5 million if 1000 squares = 6.5billion

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Can God Die?  

Posted by Seeker Of Truth in , , , , , ,

(This is a common question and source of confusion for many). This question was brought up in a comment left for me. I'd like to repeat my response, & expound a bit more...
We have understanding of the physical but we can't presume to understand the 'spirit being' or the 'spirit realm'. So often we look at these from our human perspective and apply our own reasoning to them. As I mentioned in my Did Jesus Have A Beginning post, the bible tells us that Jesus was rich [spirit] but became poor [flesh] so that we could become rich[spirit].


{Need interlinear to translate properly}:

Php. 2:5-8 Says he EMPTIED himself. What did He empty himself of? I'd say, of His 'equality' with the Father; i.e., being a spirit being, and becoming flesh.

v.6 Who, subsisting (G5225) in form of (G3444) God, did not consider equality with God to be plunder (G725)
[i.e., something he should grasp and not let loose of],

v.7 but emptied (G2758) himselftaking the very nature of a servantbeing made in human likeness.
[became flesh, no longer spirit], [did not come to be served but to serve]

He became flesh. And flesh can die. However, death of the flesh is merely 'sleep'. If you recall the story of Lazarus, he died but Jesus said he was sleeping.

Jn. 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12 His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better."

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

From our perspective, he was dead - we have no control over death. From God's perspective he was sleeping - God has control over death. He resurrected Jesus, whose physical body was dead/sleeping, but His spirit was still intact.He then speaks with a sister of Lazarus;

Jn.11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
[resurrection from physical death]

26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die
[Those still alive at Jesus' return, made spirit]. Do you believe this?" Again, Jesus says;

Jn.8:15 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Now what did He mean when He said that? People die every day.He was talking about actual death; Death of the soul. Death is not permanent until the soul has been destroyed.Jesus said in
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Do you see the distinction between the two kinds of death? What we think of as 'death' is not actual death. (Death of the body is none the less painful for those left behind, because it'll be a long time before God resurrects them). Real death does not come until the soul has been destroyed in the lake of burning sulfur, reserved for those who do not inherit the Kingdom of God. And by the way, if God can destroy both body & soul, that includes:

Re. 20: And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown


.In response to some questions & thoughts posed:
FIRST NOTE: Self-Existent means; Having No Creator. Therefore, humans that are made spirit become eternal but are not self-existent. (There are some who don't understand this.)
  • If we believe that Jesus is self-existent,& gave up His spirit body to become human & die a physical death, does it mean His spirit could have died also?
No, this is simply not the case. If you know your Bible, you know that the spirit returns to the Father when the body dies;

Ecc. 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
  • Could Jesus have ceased to exist?
It seems silly to even have to address this, but some people actually think it. His soul would have to be destroyed for that to happen & that is not God's nature. He is Love, not Evil. So, Jesus' s soul had not died. But the body He inhabited did.
As I stated earlier; We have understanding of the physical but we can't presume to understand the 'spirit being' or the 'spirit realm'. So often we look at these from our human perspective and apply our own reasoning to them. It just doesn't work that way.
Again, I recommend you also read Did Jesus Have A Beginning? I'd be curious to know if, after doing so, questions still remained. I will be addressing other false teachings of Ron Weinland in future posts, with plenty of scriptures.

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