tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post4804394840431883367..comments2024-03-28T16:55:57.201-04:00Comments on AS BEREANS DID: Jesus' Death under TrinitarianismMarthahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12438486498450616814noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-89002407793166674962013-08-06T11:59:30.402-04:002013-08-06T11:59:30.402-04:00Thank you, Darren!
It is good that we as faithful...Thank you, Darren!<br /><br />It is good that we as faithful believers in Jesus our Lord can focus on where we agree. And where we disagree, which is inevitable, it is a blessing from God that we can do so amicably and in a spirit of peace and understanding. Building people up is so much better than tearing people down.<br /><br />You're right that I have not chosen Catholicism. I would call myself an Evangelical (not the fundy kind, though). But I set my mind early on to be ecumenical rather than judgmental. My primary goal is to end all the judgment and condemnation. I've wasted too much time that sort of nonsense already in my life.<br />I am happy to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are every bit the Christian (and sinner) that I am, and Jesus will one day straighten us all out.<br /><br />We here at ABD appreciate your prayers so much!!! Please do continue to pray for us. And God bless you.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-29091298423650829832013-08-06T11:00:58.754-04:002013-08-06T11:00:58.754-04:00xHWA,
I have good news to share. The dampening of...xHWA,<br /><br />I have good news to share. The dampening of disagreement you expressed at the end of your last comment -- turns out it's not a disagreement after all!<br /><br />When I said mothers don't give birth to natures, but to persons, what I meant was: not natures exclusively -- to the exclusion of the whole person. I think we agree that what comes out of the mother is an entire person, body and soul.<br /><br />We also share the understanding that Mary's womb is not where Jesus's divine nature was "formed" in the sense of originated. We understand the Second Person of the Trinity has always existed and always will, even though that Person was born of Mary, a created being.<br /><br />Other people are afraid to apply to Mary the title "Mother of God," because they mistakenly believe it means Mary's existence preceded God's. But no Trinitarian, no Catholic, believes or means that. The title is a way of safeguarding the profound truth that the man Jesus was (and is) God. (Ask a regular "Joe Chrisian" if Jesus is God, and oftentimes you will hear, "No, he's the Son of God.")<br /><br />Keep up your good work in helping COGers and ex-COGers leave the Armstrong mentality. I left WCG/CGI and eventually became Catholic. Of course I don't agree with this site's views when they contradict Catholic teaching, but I can appreciate the difficult journey and the necessity of thinking things out when exiting Armstrongism. Your sincere service meets a sincere need out there. I will never stop praying for friends and family still ensnared by the cult of Armstrongism.DChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12287312864943887802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-18072044535940996582013-08-06T09:58:05.512-04:002013-08-06T09:58:05.512-04:00I wanted to make one more brief comment.
"If...I wanted to make one more brief comment.<br /><br />"If we define death as the separation of body and soul, then yes, Jesus totally died -- in the same way we die."<br /><br />Any person currently in Armstrongism would totally disagree with this view of death. But I want to point this out so that any reader who is only familiar with the doctrine of "soul sleep" can get a look at one way how death can be viewed apart from the doctrine of soul sleep.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-48753950501258782782013-08-06T09:52:43.546-04:002013-08-06T09:52:43.546-04:00Darren,
I want to start off by thanking you for ...Darren, <br /><br />I want to start off by thanking you for your input. This is a fabulous discussion. I don't mind the length of your comments at all.<br /><br />I agree with everything you said, except for a detail in the part about Mary. We agree that the physical nature was necessary to suffer physically, yet the entire Being suffered.<br />I honestly don't know why it seems like we are disagreeing, because we aren't. We're saying the same things in slightly different ways.<br /><br />Glad we are in such agreement!<br /><br />We are in agreement on another thing as well...<br /><br />Regarding Mary, you bring up a valid point and I have thought about it. <br />When I said "She only bore the human nature in her womb" I had in mind that only the human nature was formed there. I think now that even though I still believe only the human nature was formed there, this is not a good definition of "birth".<br /><br />I can accept that Mary did give birth to the Divine Person, but I have to qualify it by saying that Divine Nature was not formed there in her womb (the person of a normal human like you or me would have been formed there, but He is pre-existent so in His case it cannot work that way). <br />I would disagree with someone who claims that the eternally pre-existent Second Person of the Trinity was formed in Mary's womb (making Him neither eternally pre-existent nor God).<br /><br />[For the reader who is confused as to what Darren and I are discussing, it works like this-- <br /><br />Mary is the woman who God chose to give birth to the Messiah. Jesus was in her womb. If Jesus is the eternally pre-existent God in the flesh (and we adamantly profess that He is) then God was in her womb. Only his human body was formed in her womb, but God was present there. A body was formed for Him there and He did take on human nature there. If we define "birth" as being present in a womb and exiting that womb into the wide world, then God has met that definition. God did take on flesh while in her womb, He was completely present there, and He did enter the world by exiting her womb through "birth". Therefore Mary did give birth to God, and this is what the Greek word "Theotokos" means. Not that the entirety of God was formed in her womb, but that He was present in her womb and left her womb through the process of "birth".<br /><br />Darren and I are just thinking through particulars of this entire process, which things are probably not interesting to some people, but we find fascinating.]<br /><br /><br />I hate to dampen things a bit but I have to disagree in the part where you said, "Mothers don't give birth to natures; they give birth to persons." Mothers give birth to both our body (nature) and our mind (person) - and that is the part that I've contemplated the most since your comment.<br /><br />Thanks for chatting about this with me. I hope this discussion is helpful to the readers who want to learn more about these things.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-55278026944560824442013-08-05T15:44:17.014-04:002013-08-05T15:44:17.014-04:00xHWA,
Since Jesus is "fully man" as wel...xHWA,<br /><br />Since Jesus is "fully man" as well as "fully God," then, as a man, he has (1) a human body and (2) a human soul. Just like us.<br /><br />When you and I suffer as persons, it is our entirety that suffers -- body and soul. It was the same for Jesus: "MY SOUL is OVERWHELMED with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me" (Mt. 26:38); "Now MY SOUL is TROUBLED, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!" (Jn 12:27-28).<br /><br />It wasn't just Jesus's body that suffered "sorrow" and felt "troubled." He suffered just like we do. In His humanity, He suffered completely. He didn't fake His total suffering, as if He could have said, "I see that I am missing chunks of flesh from this body. My nerve endings indicate severe pain during this beating, but no big deal to me -- it's only my body." Not that His suffering was limited to bodily abuse. There was also betrayal, even agony in the Garden when He prayed for this cup to pass.<br /><br />If we define <i>death</i> as the separation of body and soul, then yes, Jesus totally died -- in the same way we die. That is to say, in His human nature, His body and soul were separated. That is NOT to say He ceased to exist, just as our own deaths do not indicate our total annihilation. So the Trinity never ceased to exist. Jesus's divine nature can never suffer. He was never at risk of losing His existence. But even His human soul did not cease to be "alive," though it was separated from His body till the third day.<br /><br />Conclusion: Since the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity assumed a human nature, then when Jesus suffered and died, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity suffered and died (again recalling that "died" does not mean "ceased to exist"). To say only a "part" of Him died or suffered is to separate the two natures, which cannot be done. Thus when Jesus spits on a blind man's eyes, for example, it's not just "human" spit; it is "divine" spit, too.<br /><br />PS: I suppose it is okay to say a "nature" can suffer (even though I said "natures don't suffer; persons do"), but I meant to say that when Jesus suffered and died in His humanity (i.e., His human nature), that doesn't mean a "part" of Him died, because HE suffered. HE died. As a Person.<br /><br />Part of what sparked my comment was the assertion in the post that Mary, while you say "technically she did bear God," only bore the human nature of Jesus. But to that I likewise say: Mothers don't give birth to natures; they give birth to persons. No one says to a mom, "What a beauty little nature you have there!" because nature is what a person has.<br /><br />In the same way, "technically" the Second Divine Person of the Trinity suffered and died (properly understood), and I think it's important to underscore this. And here's why:<br /><br /><b>It was NOT enough for Jesus's human nature -- <i>in and of and by itself, in isolation</i> -- to suffer and die for us. It was only efficacious because, in the Person of Jesus, humanity and divinity were fused together. Only that kind of dual-natured Person could redeem us.</b><br /><br />PPS: My, that was a long PS. Sorry. I hope some of that made sense. I can't see everything I've written in this comment box, and I'm at a public WiFi spot, so it's hard not to be wordy right now. I'm sure I belabored some points.<br /><br />DChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12287312864943887802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-6302452063054594372013-08-05T09:07:41.734-04:002013-08-05T09:07:41.734-04:00Perhaps I can put it this way to clarify what I...Perhaps I can put it this way to clarify what I'm trying to say re the suffering:<br /><br />If "Natures don't suffer; persons do", then do you believe that natures don't die; persons do? <br /><br />If the answer is yes, then you would believe that the second God the Son died in total and there was no Trinity for a few days. I cannot agree with you on this, from a Trinitarian perspective. <br />If the answer is no, then you and I are really in agreement here and we just need to hammer out the semantics.<br /><br />The second Person of the Trinity needed a physical body (physical nature) in order to suffer a physical beating and death. The physical beating and death was endured by the Person via this physical nature. The Spirit nature of the Person cannot be beaten nor die. Although the entire Person was suffering, and I don't in any way doubt the entire Person suffered, only the human nature was subjected to beatings and death because indeed only it could be beaten and killed.<br /><br />Hope that clarifies what I'm trying to say.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-3589460595412942742013-08-05T08:49:14.887-04:002013-08-05T08:49:14.887-04:00Darren, Re the suffering of the Person not the nat...Darren, Re the suffering of the Person not the nature..<br /><br />I totally agree with you that the entire Person suffered! I have no problem with that at all. <br />It could be argued that since there is one God and the Son is a Person in that unity, then to a degree the entire Godhead suffered.<br /><br />However, the suffering I was referring to when I said His human nature suffered was the physical suffering endured by the human body of Jesus, not a general "suffering" overall (for example say, a mental anguish). I do not believe that a spirit can suffer a physical beating at the hands of a Roman Lictor. <br /><br />His two natures are united in the hypostatic union, I completely agree! But they are not to be conflated. They are united in one, yet distinct.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-43863184074360290542013-08-03T09:56:46.481-04:002013-08-03T09:56:46.481-04:00To Lurker:
The Trinity is certainly a "myst...To Lurker: <br /><br />The Trinity is certainly a "mystery," but only in the sense that it is divine revelation, and the depths of it cannot be exhaustively explored. One radio host says it well when he says the doctrine of the Trinity is one we can apprehend, but not comprehend.<br /><br />That is to say, Trinitarian dogma is not just "best guesses"; they are necessarily true. But we can't comprehend the fullness of their meanings. It will blow a circuit if you try to wrap your mind around preexistance, eternity, multiple persons in one being, multiple natures inextricably joined within one person, spirit assuming flesh -- even what spirit is. We can speak of these things with certainty, but imperfectly because of the limitations of human language.<br /><br />Mystery is expected when speaking of the One who is life, who is existence, who is reality. We are blessed beyond imagination that this great God fathered us, loves us, and made us to spend eternity in complete joy with Him -- if only we choose Him in return and are faithful during our earthly life. DChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12287312864943887802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-76063278124923814762013-08-02T19:10:34.691-04:002013-08-02T19:10:34.691-04:00I would like to comment that I don't think it ...I would like to comment that I don't think it is the most precise thing (or correct) to say only Jesus's human nature suffered. The Person, who has the two natures, suffered. Natures don't suffer; persons do. His two natures are inextricably united (the "hypostatic union.")DChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12287312864943887802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-5461205208809559892013-06-17T13:17:00.576-04:002013-06-17T13:17:00.576-04:00Let us know what you still don't quite underst...Let us know what you still don't quite understand about the Trinity doctrine and perhaps we'll work it through together. :)<br /><br />I do agree with that quote about "man's best attempt". No way do we have God well understood. I mean, after all, it is impossible for finite man to understand infinite God regardless of whether or not we accept a Trinity.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-53130629159953701592013-06-17T13:15:19.895-04:002013-06-17T13:15:19.895-04:00Oh yes. COGs definitely came out of Adventism. Bot...Oh yes. COGs definitely came out of Adventism. Both literally by descent which we've demonstrated here several times, as well as doctrinally.<br />Well, Herbert Armstrong borrowed from many sources, including the Mormons, but the bulk of what he preached was his own form of Adventism.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-10529969609085104552013-06-17T12:46:24.029-04:002013-06-17T12:46:24.029-04:00Oh, ok. Those scriptures do seem to indicate it wa...Oh, ok. Those scriptures do seem to indicate it was a unified effort. And now I am recalling scriptures that definitely do refer to the Father raising Jesus. But now I think I am more confused about the Trinity than when I started, because I thought I understood when I really didn't. <br /><br />I am starting to think that my nondenominational pastor friend was absolutely correct describing it as a "mystery" and "man's best guess" at describing how God works. He compared humanity's attempts to truly understand God's nature and manifestation to the old adage about explaining rainbows to earthworms. <br /><br />Oh well. At least grace affords me the freedom to not feel I have to understand everything about Christianity perfectly. <br /><br />In other news, I saw a Facebook friend participating in a group study that turned out to be based on Ellen G. White's "Steps to Christ." The paragraph quoted practically could have come out of any COG publication. To state that the COGs didn't come from Adventism, as I did for years, is laughable!Lurkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-27918640316211665142013-06-14T08:56:45.103-04:002013-06-14T08:56:45.103-04:00I will edit the post to include this conversation....I will edit the post to include this conversation. It's that important to me. I thank you for the poignant and timely questions.<br />God bless you in your studies and pursuit of Him. <br /><br />Thanks for the kind words, too. And thank you 1000x for reading our humble blog! Please tell others about us.xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-79358639698230927132013-06-14T08:51:00.056-04:002013-06-14T08:51:00.056-04:00"So if I understand correctly, in short you a..."So if I understand correctly, in short you are saying that Jesus' death/resurrection under Trinitarianism theory doesn't require a second being to resurrect Him because His spirit component didn't die; thus he was perfectly capable of resurrecting Himself in bodily form."<br /><br />Excellent question. I didn't even think to touch on that in the post.<br /><br />That Jesus raised Himself is a distinct possibility.<br /><br />After all, Jesus did say "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (JON. 10: 18). Pretty clear that the Son had the authority to raise Himself up. But that's not all. Recall what He said in John 2: 19 "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Jesus unambiguously says that He will raise it up.<br /><br />So, it is a distinct and very Biblical possibility that He did raise Himself up.<br />But the truth appears to be that it was the entire Godhead including God the Son acting in unity.<br /><br />Most of the instances in the New Testament just say that "God" raised Jesus up. This could be all the persons acting in unity, and I believe it is. <br /><br />The Father was included.<br />When we get to Galatians 1: 1 it distinctly says "the Father who raised Him from the dead". We see this less clearly stated in other places like Ephesians 1: 20. So, the Father definitely played the leading part in it.<br /><br />The Holy Spirit also is included.<br />(ROM. 8: 11) "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."<br /><br />So, to answer the initial question, yes Jesus was perfectly capable and apparently did raise Himself, BUT it wasn't Jesus alone. It was the entire Godhead acting in unity. (Which is how they do most things.)xHWAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01061716053302210598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5528158760608808912.post-35133083304436085992013-06-14T07:06:40.629-04:002013-06-14T07:06:40.629-04:00Well how's that for service? Three days later ...Well how's that for service? Three days later and I get a blog response! Seriously, though, thank you!<br /><br />So if I understand correctly, in short you are saying that Jesus' death/resurrection under Trinitarianism theory doesn't require a second being to resurrect Him because His spirit component didn't die; thus he was perfectly capable of resurrecting Himself in bodily form. <br /><br />I guess that does make more sense than assuming Jesus' spirit component went into hiding somewhere while he was human and then rejoined Him later. Never thought of that problem before. I think Armstrongism does teach that He was fully human while on Earth, hence the teaching that He could have sinned. Funny, you'd think that belief would lead them to be even MORE in awe of Him, and yet it doesn't. <br /><br />I appreciate your treading lightly in not insisting people accept the Trinity. My spouse and I personally don't have a huge problem with it, and suspect there is something mistaken about the nature of God as we were taught, which would explain the shallow connection and serious spiritual problems the COGs seem to have. But we have been shocked at the amount of anger and loathing there is out there in the Armstrongist churches toward this teaching as we've been exploring more mainstream Christianity. As I mentioned to you before, it seems kind of silly to draw a line in the sand and labeling people false Christians over insisting we understand how our ETERNAL CREATOR exists and manifests Himself. <br /><br />Keep up the great work and thank you! Lurkernoreply@blogger.com