Friday, July 4, 2008

DID JESUS HAVE A BEGINNING? (RePost)

I am reposting this article. However, it differs from the original in that there are a few alterations and additions. I will follow up with a related article on July 7TH.
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It is my hope that those who believe that, or are not yet sure if, Ron Weinland is a prophet or that what he teaches is truth will do as the Bereans did, to check the scriptures to see if what he says is true. My hope also, is that you will follow my suggestions in the box below.

I strongly suggest the use of an Interlinear (original language the scriptures were written in), and a Strong’s Dictionary for word definitions. Without one, Bible study is greatly diminished. You can get them for New and Old Testament, although Old Testament is difficult to find and costly. A New/Old Testament set costs approximately seventy some dollars.
For those who may not be familiar: (G2064) (H3068) This is a reference to the Greek (G) or Hebrew (H) word in the interlinear and the Strongs number assigned to it for easier locating in the Strongs Dictionary for the definition of the Greek or Hebrew word.
I recommend you not only look at the scriptures listed here, but research the subject thoroughly by finding a lot more scriptures on your own. It's not a good idea to limit yourself to the verses given you by the person presenting you their beliefs.
Below, my comments, that are mixed in with verses, are bracketed: [...].

First, Ron claims that Jesus is not Yahweh and also that those who teach this are mistaken. I have scripture that says otherwise. Why does it matter? Because he uses this lie to assist in the denial of Christ having always existed.

I will open with,
2Jn. 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming (G2064 having come) in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. V.8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. V.10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. V.11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Ron dismisses the truth of:
Jn.4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of god; Every spirit (G4151 The rational soul) that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
He says this scripture is NOT about a self existent eternal Jesus coming to earth in the form of a flesh body, rather about Jesus dwelling in our flesh. This is a lie! When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, it is quite clear, and this scripture is not one of them! Ron claims people just don't understand the bible, then proceeds to explain what the scripture 'REALLY' means! I'll make an entry later, that covers the topic of whether or not we must be taught by others (clergy), as opposed to the Holy Spirit.
Why say he came in FLESH if he had a beginning? It would be stating the obvious. Anyone born, is of the FLESH. However, if God had been made flesh, it then makes sense to state it. Moreover, why would scripture mention anyone denying Jesus’ Spirit dwelling in us? Are there any scriptures you have seen that talk about people that don’t acknowledge Jesus’ Spirit dwelling in us? I haven’t seen any. When the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, it is quite evident!
I won’t take the stance that he has: 2008—God’s Final Witness, Page51,
'I am simply to state the truth as it is. I do not have to spend endless hours defending it, debating it or expounding upon it. The truth is simply the truth…' (Bold his).
Rather, my stance is 1Pe.3:15….”Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”
This is my aim here. To offer the proofs of my belief statements.
When I first began listening to Ron and heard his questionable teachings, I spent ten months searching scriptures to see if what he said in his sermons and books were true. I found many of his teachings to contradict the Bible!


Jesus, also, is called Yahweh
If you have an interlinear you will see that Jer. 23:5-6 Is talking about Jesus and that in v.6 it says the name he will be called by is the LORD our Righteousness.
Two things; * Ron explains: that LORD, all caps, in the bible, is the word
Yahweh (H3068 Eternal, Self-Existent) which is true - see your interlinear,
* and that only the Father is called Yahweh and that Jesus is not. However, this verse says otherwise. Verse 5 and 6 are talking of the coming of Jesus in the flesh. It says in v.6 he will be called Yahweh.
5 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.

Zec.2:8 For this is what the LORD (G3068 Yahweh-Eternal; self-existent) says: After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations… [The Father sends the Son, the Son doesn’t send the Father. These two verses make it quite clear that they are both called Yahweh.]
8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you—for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye-
9
I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me.


God made flesh
Now, we see in 1Tim. 3:16 [if you have an interlinear you will not be held back in your studies, and you will see this verse says,] God was manifested in flesh. [If you have a concordance, you may be able to find these translations in the back of it. The Strong's number for the words are as
follows]: v.16 He [actual Greek word translates;
God (G2316)], appeared [translates; Manifested (G5319)] in a body [translates; flesh (G4561).]
If you don't have an interlinear but have a concordance that provides the Strong's Numbers, you can use it to find the original word and definitions in the back. However I prefer a Greek, Hebrew dictionary.
Php. 2:5-8 {Need interlinear to translate properly} says; v.6 Who, subsisting (G5225) in form of (G3444) God, did not consider equality with God to be plunder (G725) [i.e., something he should grasp and not let loose of], v.7 but emptied (G2758) himself [became flesh, no longer spirit], taking the very nature of a servant [did not come to be served but to serve] being made in human likeness. V.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death [if you are flesh you die, that’s obedience to death]– even death on the cross.
If he was created, had a beginning, why say he was made in human likeness? Anyone born is in human likeness. If he was created, what did he empty himself of? If he was created, why say he was found in appearance as a man? What other appearance is there for a human? If he was created, what did he humbled himself of? If he was created, how did he become obedient to death? Are not ALL HUMANS obedient to death? Is there anyone who can defy death?

Obviously, we are all familiar with;
Jn. 1:4 the word became flesh. And,
Rev. 19:13 his name is the word of God.
So, do we ignore these scriptures and believe when Ron says the 'word' was the Father's spoken word and NOT a being who became flesh?

2 Cor. 8:9 talks about him giving up his spirit body for a flesh one, it says; Jesus was rich
[spirit/eternal], yet for your sakes he became poor [flesh], so that you through his poverty [flesh body] might become rich [gain eternal life through his sacrifice].

1 Jn. 4:2 Jesus has come, (G2064
having come) in the flesh... Ron says this is talking about Jesus dwelling in us! Absolutely false. When the Bible talks about the Father or Jesus dwelling in us, it is quite obvious. This is not about that, but about Jesus having come in a flesh body; giving up his richness (spirit body) to be poor (flesh body) for our salvation.
What love, for our God to give up His glorious spirit body and take on the form of a flesh body, a body that does what our lowly human bodies do, sweat, go to the bathroom etc., Like any great leader, He left His 'desk' to be in the 'trenches' with His 'men',
and in that human form He felt the pain of physical torture to the death, to save a bunch of unworthy humans! Truly, there is no greater love!
He gave up his spirit body and became flesh, relying on the Father to raise his flesh body from death and return him to the Glory he had before!
1Cor.15:47-49 says Adam was of the dust of the earth [flesh], Jesus the Lord (G2962 Kurios) out of heaven [spirit]. As was the earthly [flesh] man (Adam), so are those who are of the earth ; and as is the man from heaven, [spirit], so are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly [flesh] man (Adam), so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven [spirit].
Jn. 6:38-42 Note: v.38 For I have come down from heaven. V.41 The Jews began to grumble about him because he said, “ I am the bread that came down from heaven.” V.42 They said, “Isn’t this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he say ‘I came down from heaven’?” [What were they upset about? That God caused a virgin to birth him or that he claims to have come from heaven?]
Jn.6:62 What if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before?
Ep.4:9 What does “ascended” mean, except that he also descended

All things made by him
Col. 1:16-18 is talking about Jesus and says; for by him all things were created. And also the following scripture;
Jn. 1:10…the world was made through him…[How can something be created though him if he hadn’t been born yet because he had a beginning? Are we going to call this a metaphor or say 'it is BEING created through him everyday'? The bible CLEARLY is not saying that. We know it is speaking of THE creation.]

Preexistence
Jesus and John say:
Jn. 1:15 [Jesus was before John the Baptist (who was born six months before Jesus)].
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'
Jn.6:62 What if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before?
Jn.8:56-59 Note v.58 Jesus answered; before Abraham was born, I AM! [(I AM = God), he was God before Abraham was born, not became God after Abraham was born!] (Note:
Ex.3:14 This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.”)
V.59 [They picked up stones to stone him for this statement! Why?! Because he was claiming to ‘HAVE BEEN before Abraham’, i.e. God with no beginning!]
57 "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him...


Jn.16:27-31 …the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. V.28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. V.29 Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. V.30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.” V.31 “You believe at last!” Jesus answered.
____________________________________________


I am going to break this down:
v.28 I came (G1831 exerchoma- come forth, come out, depart out of) from (G3844 para- near, from beside, at/in the vicinity of) the Father (G3962 Pater- father) and entered (G1659 eleutho- liberate / G2064 eltho- to come, to go) the world (G2889 kosmos- world); now (G3825 palin- once more, again) I am leaving (G863 aphiemi- send, send forth), the world and going (G4198 poreuomai- traverse, travel, remove) back to (G4314 pros- forward, toward – the side of, near to, the related destination) the Father.”


Therefore, it says:
‘I left the Fathers side, liberated to come into the world. Again, I leave the world and, travel to the Fathers side.
Jn. 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. [Again, how can the Father create a universe through an unborn son that doesn't exist yet?
And a quick note for those who may ask 'how can He inherit what is already his?' What makes you think he already owned it? Does your child own now, the family Bible you intend to pass onto them one day? No, it still belongs to you.
Note:
Jeremiah 10:16 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the tribe of his inheritance—
the LORD Almighty is his name.
[Israel is Yahweh's inheritance. This argues a couple of things;
1) the 'how can He inherit what He already owns?' question, is not a good argument to try to prove Jesus had a beginning, because this scripture says Yahweh inherits. Meaning; if only the Father is Yahweh, then the Father inherits...so this question, in regards to Jesus, doesn't hold water.
2)Who is the Portion of Jacob? Jesus is, and the One who is the Portion of Jacob is the Maker of all things, and His name is Yahweh. Meaning; Jesus is the Maker of all things and, Jesus is Yahweh also, not just the Father. Following, are a couple more;]

Zechariah 2:12 The LORD [Yahweh] will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem.
Psalm 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance.]

Heb. 1:10 [Now, go over this chapter carefully] v.8 But about the Son he says...V.10 He also says, in the beginning O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Ron explains this away, saying that v.10 is about the Father creating. If that were true, this sentence would read something like this: The Father also says, "In the beginning O Me the Father laid the foundations… [The Father is not talking to himself, he’s talking to Jesus.]
Jg.6:11-14 [We know that LORD is Yahweh, and we see here that the angel of the LORD visits Gideon, and we see in v.11 that this messenger is Yahweh. So this ‘angel of the LORD is God and if only the Father existed at that time, as Ron says, then these verses are calling the Father, the Messenger (angel means messenger) of himself. Did the Father send himself to give a message to Gideon? No, he sent Jesus.]
1co.10:4 …drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them and that rock was Christ.
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
[This statement; ' accompanied them' is information Paul got from
Ex. 13:21! (below), note the next three scriptures.]
Ex.3:8 (v.3-8) So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land….[Who came down to rescue them? Who accompanied them? Jesus, the Christ, as we see in the above scripture. Who was in the burning bush then? Well, I'd say Jesus, the Christ.]
Ex.13:21 By day the LORD [Yahweh] went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud..and by night in a pillar of fire.. [Yes, ahead of them was Jesus.]
Jg.2:1The angel of the LORD [messenger of Yahweh, Father and Son are each called Yahweh,] went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said,” I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers.
[The individual who is speaking says He brought them out of Egypt...this individual is the messenger of Yahweh. So this messenger of Yahweh brought them out of Egypt and led them to the land that this messenger of Yahweh swore to give to their forfathers. Did a created angel swear to give them that land? No.]

Who returns to fight and stand on the Mount of Olives?
Zec.14:3-9 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the mount of Olives… [If “LORD” is Yahweh and if only the Father is Yahweh, as Ron teaches, then this would be saying the Father, and not Jesus, will fight and stand on the Mt. We know this is not the case.]
How many Gods are there?
Ron also explains away (Gen.1:1) In the beginning God (H430 Elohiym) created the heavens and…. The New Strong’s Complete Dictionary of Bible Words, says: (H430 Elohiym; Plural of H433 Elowahh, eloahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article –the-) of the supreme God).
Ron also points to (Is.45:18)…”I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Let’s look more closely at this.
In (V.1) we see he is addressing Cyrus, who is to be born in the future (v.13), telling him of His plans for him (v.14-16). Saying that Egypt and Cush will come to him in chains and, will be his. They will bow before him and plead with him, saying, “Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.”(V.16) All the makers of idols will be put to shame and disgraced… (V.18) …”I am the LORD, and there is no other. This is in reference to idols.

Does it matter? Is it important?
Ro. 10:1-3 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer, to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. V.2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. [But their zeal is not based on knowledge. Interesting statement.] V.3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. [Righteousness comes through faith, not by works.]
2Jn :7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming (G2064 having come) in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. V.8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
V.9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
V.10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. V.11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
So what's the deal? Anyone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus having come in the flesh is the deceiver and the antichrist! You don't really believe this scripture is warning us against someone who denies that Jesus dwells in our flesh, do you?

In Closing:
As Ron says in his book 2008—God’s final witness, on page 46:
“If some doctrine or belief in God is a lie, then by its very definition it cannot be true or from God. People who embrace any of the thousands of ‘Christian’ beliefs need to know what their church teaches, where their beliefs originate, and whether they truly come from God. If they find lies, then they must change or willingly submit to what they know is false, and thereby be guilty of opposing the one true God.”

[And I know you are aware this doesn't exclude Ron.]

He asks, on page 50 in regard to Sunday worship:
Why do they feel they must defend this doctrine themselves by twisting and misrepresenting scriptures so that they seemingly indicate that there is some validity in …
[whatever the subject may,] (underline and bold, mine).


I ask this same question of those who believe the biblical contradictions that Ron teaches. Contradictions that require twisting and, misrepresentation of scriptures so that they seemingly indicate that there is some validity in what he teaches. Contradictions that one can easily see with:
  • simple study of scripture, (as the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true, Ac.17:11), And
  • a desire to see the truth regardless of the source and,
  • a willingness to not so readily defend a doctrine that may- by discovery of any particular scripture- be a lie, because you think, or thought your original source or belief to be correct.

Are we interested in defending our belief in something, at any cost, or are we interested in the truth even if it pulls the rug out from under us? Is your heart in pleasing God?

One final thought/scripture to leave you with;

Isaiah 43:10

10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, [Yahweh (H3068 Eternal, Self-Existent]
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

So.... If Jesus had a beginning... a God WAS formed!
Someone is NOT telling you the TRUTH!
And God is no liar.

4 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's amazing (well, not really), that we see this heresy being promulgated today as NEW truth by Ron Weinland. It's the same heresy that was dividing the early church (Arianism).
Heresies abound out there and this is exactly why I like to repeat the Nicean Creed each week. It helps us keep focused on essential truths and not get caught up in someone's wacky theological interpretations like Weinlands. Weinland doesn't have an orthodox theological education and, like Armstrong, makes things up and uses very poor exegesis because of his lack of understanding of Greek and Hebrew.

AggieAtheist said...

Just for the record, Armstrongism is semi-Arian, in that they are binitarians.

Weinland departs from this, in that he is unitarian (denies the divinity/preexistence of the christ figure), and in other respects, he seems to have departed from "traditional" CoG theology as well.

The false prophecy, well, that's Herbie through and through. Looks like it's failing for ILFPRW a little more than it did for Herbie though. Which is a good thing.

Anonymous said...

I can't tell you HOW MANY times I've heard Ron, PKG members and members from other splinter groups TELL ME what "traditional Christianity" teaches on certain subjects, but after personally listening to Christian Radio I've found they are WRONG on their explainations. After asking the PKG members and some other splinter group members who I know when was the last time they've listened to Christian Radio or pastors from traditional Christian churches, the answer was 100% never.

Weinland Watch said...

LOL of course the answer is never! What do those "special chosen elite of gawd" have to listen to the daughter churches of the great whore of babylon for?!?

Yeah I'm being sarcastic. :-(