Thursday, July 31, 2008

Is It A Sacrifice For God To Become Human & Die For Us?

Is Jesus self-existent? Did He take on human form?
Was He created? Did He become God?

If He is self-existent, what kind of sacrifice is it for God to come down here & pay the penalty for our sins? He knew He would be dead only three days & nights and be resurrected. Anyway, God can't die, right?

Let's examine this.

Before we begin, let's first pause to think about sacrifice. Sacrifice is giving up something that is painful to give up. The more you give up the bigger the sacrifice and all the more painful. If it's not painful, then it's not a sacrifice, it is simply giving.

We'll start by assuming Jesus was created, had a beginning;
What is the sacrifice?


How is it a sacrifice for a created Jesus to die? He knows He'll be resurrected.
A sacrifice is about something painful to give up. How much does a created Jesus give up? What is He giving up? All humans die.

Well, let's see... He was put in the womb of a virgin by God. This is His beginning, this created God. When did He become God? In the womb? After He was born? Perhaps at a certain age? Is He human or is He God? Is He both?

He was created in a human body. He was created to become God. He was created to die for our sins. To suffer and be tested like all humans. He had to overcome, He had to be perfect.

He wasn't giving up a 'normal' life; planning a future, having a family. His life was predetermined. So what did He sacrifice? What did He give up? His human life. He relinquished His life.

Now let's assume He is self-existent;
What is the sacrifice?


How is it a sacrifice for God to take human form and die? He knows He'll be resurrected.
A sacrifice is about something painful to give up. How much does God give up? What is He giving up?

He is an eternal, self-existent being who came down from heaven, giving up His glorious body for a flesh body... a body that sweats, pees, poops, must be fed and bathed and wears common clothing. (Can you imagine the President of the United States washing your feet? How much further to descend in humility, for God to take human form for thirty plus years, than for the President to wash your feet?)
Jesus/God was put in a body that feels. God felt every lashing. God was tortured. God's flesh was ripped from his body, His bones were showing. He was so marred, He was beyond human likeness.
So, whether Jesus was created or self-existent, in each case the pain and suffering of torture is felt.


So, again;
What does a created Jesus give up, how much does a created Jesus give up? Quite a bit. He will be tortured to death, but be raised three days later, and soon join the Father in heaven.

What does a self-existent Jesus give up, how much does a self-existent Jesus give up? Quite a bit. He will leave His home in heaven to get down in the trenches with us, leave His glorious body behind, inhabit a human body that pees and poops, and be tortured to death, and soon return to the Father in heaven.


Let's look at three arguments for a created Jesus;
1) If God comes down and dies for our sins. How's that a sacrifice? He knows He's going to be resurrected three days later.

Whether He had always been God, or whether He became God, it is still God who makes the sacrifice. It is still God who pays the debt. Whether created or self-existent, He knows He will be resurrected three days later, He knows that he will be joining or re-joining the Father in heaven in a few days, so how is it any more of a sacrifice for a created Jesus than it is for a self-existent Jesus? God, or human; He knows He'll be resurrected.


You see? In either case it is God who sacrifices, who dies to pay the debt for our sins.

2) God can't die.

Remember: the body dies (a temporary death~or sleep, as I've pointed out in previous posts), the spirit returns to the Father. The spirit only dies if sent to the pit (an eternal/permanent death).

3) How can He inherit what is already His?

First, why would you assume it's already His?
Second, the Bible tells us that Yahweh inherits. (Remember: Ron teaches that only the Father is Yahweh).

See the dilemma? It's a backfiring argument. It only requires logic and common sense. But, in case you don't see the dilemma; It's a backfiring argument because if only the Father is Yahweh, and if the Bible says Yahweh inherits, then you can't use as an argument for Jesus being created: "How can He inherit what is already His?" Still don't get it? If the Father can inherit, then Jesus can inherit. Now do you get it?

Here is the problem with Jesus being created - the problem with a God being created to die for our sins;
Is. 43:10 tells us no Gods have been or ever will be created, meaning;
1) Jesus was not created and,
2) You will not become Gods.


Now we come to this question; Which is the greater sacrifice? Who gives up the most? It's quite clear who gives up the most; An eternal, self-existent God.

Are you trampling under foot the Son of God?

Yet an other of Ron's arguments that do not hold water.

Again, I ask you members; are you capable of proving me wrong?

It is important that you understand; Everything on this blog is based on my current understanding. Never take anyone's word for it, always prove it for yourself, it is your responsibility. You cannot ride someone else's coattail into the Kingdom.

1 comment:

Anonymous said...

When you are wrong about the nature of God like Ron is, you are wrong about everything else. He's a blind heretic leading the blind.

Jesus can give them sight, but they don't want Him to.