Accepting Jesus On the Death-Bed & the 1st Resurrection

Let me start, first, by stating my view on the resurrections. I hear some people refer to 1st, 2nd and 3rd resurrections (I've heard my Mom mention it on occasion). I don't really get that. I guess the deal is; Jesus was the 1st and then follows the 2nd when he returns and then the 3rd- being the GWTJ.

I, personally don't view it that way, and, so some of you don't get confused when you read this, let me tell how I do view it; People were resurrected before Jesus was; Lazarus, a little girl who had died, someone who, while listening to a 'sermon,' fell asleep in a window and fell to his death.

As I see it; Jesus is returning, and two resurrections follow; one at His return, the other after the millennial period (the GWTJ). Re.20:6 "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." Okay, now you will know what I'm talking about.

Ron Weinland teaches that a person cannot accept Jesus on their death-bed and be in the first resurrection. He says we must be tested and refined first (for the individual on the death-bed, this would be after they're raised in the second resurrection). He uses as an example; Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac. Ge.22:12 "Now I know you." I don't believe for a second, that God doesn't know our character.

First; I think that was for our benefit and for Abraham's (to know if he would actually follow through). God knew! Just like He knew Lucifer would fall; Adam & Eve would sin...

Second; Jesus told one of the thieves on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise. The thief didn't get down off the cross and begin a process of testing and refinement. He died there on that cross. He had already lived a life opposed to God/love and realized on the cross, next to Jesus, that there was a better way and believed Jesus. He had faith in Jesus. He didn't climb down and begin a maturing process. Jesus had promised him paradise. Not the 2nd resurrection with those who hadn't believed, but the 1st. Let's find out why this is true.

We know what Ron says, now let's see what God has to say on the matter:

Jn. 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."
[So, obviously the Father called him and revealed to him that Jesus was the Messiah.]

Mt. 16:15-17 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Does the Father call someone for the 2nd resurrection? No. He knows the character of those He calls, those He predestined from the beginning;
Ep 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will".
:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will..."

That thief accepted Jesus on his 'death-bed' and was promised to be with Jesus in paradise. Paradise is not in flesh and blood in the 2nd resurrection.
Despite what Ron teaches, new believers will be in the 1st resurrection.

Ron says, himself, in the sermon Prophesied Truths, (near the middle) that; "God sees to it that we go through the things we need to go through in this life in order to come to the point we need to come to, to come through it all. And that means hardship and it means difficult..."
Therefore, the thief had also! God has ALREADY done the work (making sure we experience what is necessary). We were PREDESTINED!

Ga.3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
:7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.
[The thief believed and became a child of Abraham]

Jn. 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
[The thief believed and became one of God's children]

Ro. 8:17 "Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ..."
[Do co-heirs with Christ get the 2nd resurrection?]

Ro. 8:29 "He FOREKNEW us and PREDESTINED us to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus."
:33 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies."

Mt. 15:13 "He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots." [It is quite obvious, then, that the thief was one of those plants planted by the Father.]

Jn. 10:9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved." [Including a thief on a cross.]
:14, 16 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
[The thief knew He was the Messiah]

16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." [The thief knew His voice.]

Jn. 10:28 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand." [Does that sound like someone in the 2nd resurrection, where all are raised into flesh and blood bodies?]

Now let's look at the parable of the workers in the vineyard. We'll break it down so we can understand how the thief on the cross (or any new believer, death-bed or not) will receive the same thing a long-time believer will receive.

Mt. 20:1-16 "For the kingdom of heaven IS LIKE...
V1 a landowner [God] who went out early in the morning to hire men [call men to Him] to work in his vineyard [become believers]

v2 He agreed to pay them a denarius [give them eternal life] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

v3 About the 3rd hour [a time after others have already been called to come to God] he went out and saw others standing in the market place doing nothing.

v4 He told them, you also go and work in my vineyard [God called them], a I will pay you whatever is right [give them eternal life].

v5 So they went. [They accepted the call of God]. He went out again about the 6th & 9th hour [called others at a later time than others who had already been called] and did the same thing.

v6 About the 11th hour [little time left] he went out and found still others standing around [those who hadn't been called yet]. He asked them 'why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

v7 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered [they had not been called by God, had not received His message]. He said to them ' you also go work in my vineyard.'

v8 When evening came, [the time to receive from God the gift of eternal life] the owner [God] of the vineyard said to his foreman [Jesus], 'call the workers and pay them their wages [give them eternal life], beginning with the last ones hired [the last ones called by God the Father].

v9 The workers who were hired about the 11th hour [called late, later, last, at the last minute] came & each received a denarius [eternal life].

v10 So when those came who were hired first [called by God the Father early on & therefore, long-time believers], they expected [confidently believed] to receive more [something better & beyond the "newcomers"]. But each on them also received a denarius [the same eternal life, the same resurrection].

v11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the land owner [God the Father].

v12 "These men who were hired last [believers for the shortest length of time] worked only one hour." [Haven’t believed as long as we have] they said, "and you [God] have made them equal to us [as if there is no difference between long-time, and short-time believers] who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day." [Trials and persecutions that accompany the duration of belief].

v13 But he answered one of them, "Friend, I'm not being unfair to you [ripping you off]. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?" [Weren't you told you would receive eternal life in the first resurrection?]

v14 "Take your pay and go. I [God] want to give the man who was hired last [called last] the same as I gave you [eternal life in the 1st resurrection].

v15 "Don't I have the right to do what I want with my money? [My gift of eternal life]. Or are you envious [wanting more/better] because I am generous?"

v16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
[It seems to me that the thief is first. But isn't Ron teaching that the first will be first. That is; his church and some from history?]

If you understand analogies then you can understand parables and this one isn't difficult to understand. Now, on the issue of the first resurrection as opposed to the 2nd, let’s consider this...

Your a new believer, [alive and well, or on the death bed], or the thief on the cross. God the Father has called you. You are now and heir, co-heirs with Christ. You are now the bride of Jesus. When does the second resurrection take place? After the wedding! After the millennial period! So what resurrection are believers going to be in? Believers are the bride of Christ.

Re.20:6 "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them..." [Because they are now immortal (not eternal) spirit beings].

Ez. 37, Re.20:6 [Those in the second resurrection are not spirit beings, but are raised in flesh bodies, and take part in the great white throne judgment. This is no place for believers - new, or not.]

1Pe. 4:17 "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who don't obey the gospel of God?"
[If you're a believer, you are the family of God and thus, are being judged now, not at the GWTJ of the second resurrection].

1Co. 11:31-32 "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." [We are being judged now, not at the GWTJ].

1Co. 15:23 (All believers are resurrected and/or changed at His return.) "All will be made alive. Each in his own turn...then, when He comes, those who belong to Him."
[Do new believers belong to Him or not?]

Jn.6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but, raise them up at the last day.
:40 For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day."

1Co. 15:51 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep [die], but we will all be changed
:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of and eye, [when?], at the last trumpet.

[Long before the second resurrection.
So, no, those who believed at the last minute, on their death-bed, won't be in the second resurrection; new believers won't be in the second resurrection, or live on into the millennium. They will be in the first resurrection, where they belong - with all believers].

When Is the Last Time You Picked Up Ron's Book (2008 GFW)?

Mike, of Don't Drink the Flavor Aid, brought up a point that has been a real burr in my saddle;
I believe WE know Ron's book "2008 God's Final Word" better than his MEMBERS do. Why do I say this? Because if they KNEW his book, they would realize that he is constantly back-peddling, changing time-lines, contradicting himself, and that NONE of his prophesies have happened as he SAID they would!

If you are NOT AWARE of this, you have not been going over the book! HE IS NOT JUST A MAN! By his own self-proclamation, he is God's prophet! IF he is God's prophet, NOTHING he claims will FAIL, NOTHING! Being JUST a man has nothing to do with ANYTHING! He said he is God's prophet!

I ask you again; did Moses prophesy and then wind up looking like a fool because nothing happened as he had said? No. EVERYTHING he said would happen, DID happen, because he WAS God's prophet.No, Herbert was not JUST a man, (which I will, soon, address ). Ron is not JUST a man. Ron CLAIMS he is God's PROPHET, but we are told in Deut. 18:22 "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."
If what Ron proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. Ron has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

So. As Mike pointed out; Ron YET AGAIN, has contradicted himself! In the Saturday, May 24, 2008 service; Ron said that your guys' training is NOT done!
Open your book (2008 GFW) to page 115 and read the third paragraph;
see where it says; "Seventh Seal" and "By the time this final seal [the 7th] is opened, all 144,000 whom God has called...will be fully trained..."

[The 7th seal HAS been opened - remember; Ron said the 1st Trumpet blew on April 17th, the first day of the tribulation.
Now, listen to what he said Saturday: You can download it here, compliments of Mike and listen to it again. If you're using Real Player, you will find the statement at about 1:14:00 to about 1:15:03.
"...I realize I'm still being trained for the job ahead . There are things I have to learn, there are things I have to go through yet, there are things that God is going to mold and fashion within me. Just because there's been a sealing that's taken place even for those who are going to be a part of the great resurrection here, that doesn't mean your training is over, that doesn't mean that your not gonna be growing, that doesn't mean that there are not more things that need to be molded and fashioned within you, on the contrary because of the period of time that's ahead, there's much more, that God has the ability to mold and fashion within you! Because of what you get to experience! ...if you understand what I'm saying... That'll be some of the time and some of the greater growth and molding and fashioning in your life... for what's ahead, for what place God has for you in His kingdom. It truly is. It's an astounding thing, when you see, when you understand."

So which is it? Fully trained or NOT fully trained. He can't keep it straight, because God is not giving him prophesies. I have to ask you, again, WHY do you believe RON over GOD? You are really boggling my mind! Please. Go re-read his book. No. Don't go do something else, don't read something else...pick up the book. I am challenging you.

Poison Doctrine: the Dichotomy of Armstrongism

A philosophical set of ideas may appear incompatible with the resulting behavior at first glance. This is the idea I want to explore with a personal story that occurred after I was grown, and that, to be fully understood would need detailed dissection of the background.

It will have to suffice that I was grown, but a non-functioning member of society. The repetitive process over so many years of ingraining law, loyalty and the lines of authority of church, minister and mother (whom I’ll call RPS) into my head, was deeper than I could imagine. RPS’s techniques were encapsulated in humiliation and pain via the whipping of the bear ass of the child bent over a bed, in which crying would add more lashes until crying ceased; and the sessions would continue until all negative facial expressions were gone, and a state of complete submission and acceptance of guilt was achieved. My Dad said she was better at brainwashing than the Red Chinese. See; Thought Reform (Thanks to Weinland Watch). He was right; To this day, when I feel guilty about something, the warm sensation of the post beating endorphins clearly manifests itself in the appropriate location.

RPS was first married to RF; whom she had returned to, because church doctrine didn’t recognize the divorce, nor did it recognize her second marriage to my father. I was declared illegitimate, and accepted the classification as part of my identity, which was shame personified. RF had a daughter; D around my age from another relationship, and she had two children while yet in her teens. RPS considered D to be a lower form of life than a maggot, but always smiled and spoke sweetly to D’s face. RPS gained D’s confidence, and when D decided to spend some time with her children’s father to try to renew their relationship, RPS volunteered to take the kids for a few months but wanted D to sign a document that gave her temporary legal custody. After D left, RPS moved to another state for a number of years, and sent word to D that she had actually signed away her parental rights, period. According to RPS, D had huffed glue while pregnant with the second child (a boy I’ll call T) allegedly resulting in behavior abnormalities, but distrust of authorities wouldn’t allow her to seek any professional help.

The whole point of taking the kids was to ‘save’ them from the ‘evil druggy’; but RPS only understood the carrot and stick method of child rearing, and she would turn up the heat by degrees as she sensed rebellion. The older child (a girl) was sensitive and submissive so her treatment was not harsh, but RPS claimed the boy was obstinate and incorrigible. His self-professed ‘savior’ was determined to eradicate the roots of ill behavior; I learned to what degree RPS would go, when she returned approximately 6 yrs. later.

I had been floating between places I could crash, which included my grandmother’s; GM. I was taking another shot at school, and GM needing someone to be with her, had RPS move in. One would almost not know that T (now 8 yrs. old) was there. Except for periodical screaming and butt beating sessions, he’d be virtually invisible except on Sabbath, where he sat quietly, and was always known as a remarkably “good little boy.”

At home, RPS would keep T seated behind a table with chairs arranged in a semi circle around him to hang blankets over to keep him isolated; he would bite his finger nails down to the quick, and gnaw holes in the blankets, on bits of linoleum, molding, or anything else he could lay his hands on. T would find ingenuous ways of acquiring little tidbits of things he’d hide like inmates in prison hide their contraband, which showed evidence of intelligence incompatible with the kind of brain damage we were told he had. He would never cry when he got beat, his face would just grimace in a fashion that RPS took as defiance, and would net him more of the same. As I said, she would work on a child, until she extinguished any sign of defiance, but it seemed as if this kid was beyond breaking. I was all too familiar with what was happening to him, and I was having a running head-trip because of all the conflict it was stirring up. Just trying to recognize how wrong this was didn’t come easy. I had been in total denial of what had happened to me as a child, but now I was face to face with the evidence. I always accepted that I was punished because I deserved it. But I didn’t see how this kid did anything to warrant what he was getting.

I got an opportunity to make a few dollars driving a classic car to the port at Baltimore for shipment to Europe, but before I left, RPS asked me to help put together a storage closet with a bed on top, with the dimensions 4x4x7. I did what she asked. One entire side was open when I left for the East coast, but when I returned, it had been ply wooded closed, and T was now kept inside. I was told that he was destroying things in the house, and defecating in odd places. This was turning up the heat in my head, but what really woke me up was my future wife’s sister, JD, who was over for some reason when T was having a tantrum. No crying, just insane screaming. RPS yelled at me, “Grab him.” Instinctively, I immediately obeyed, as I always had, and she wailed the holy hell out of him. JD almost came unglued after we walked outside to go where we had been going before this incident, and in the car she demanded an explanation of how I could do such a thing, and I could only shake my head and say,”I don’t know.”

I was trying to fix myself, and deal with my own educational deficiencies. When I had been making progress in the past, it seemed that RPS would pull some stunt in her eternal battle with the ‘evil world,’ and I would be left emotionally messed up, and unable to deal with school work, and this was repeating itself. Now she was in control of the roof over my head, and I had no job qualifications; but I could no longer stand by and do nothing, so I made an appointment to see the minister; MD. I described to him everything that was happening, and when I had finished, I sat their expecting some guidance, but got only silence. After an uncomfortably long pause MD opened up both barrels, and among the crap he unloaded on me was the direct order to cease and desist bad mouthing my mother, and that he didn’t want to hear any echo of this coming back to him from any source.

MD had already put the screws to me. He had me reporting back to him on a specific quota of prayer, fasting and bible study as well as forced membership in spokesmen’s club. He had told me in no uncertain terms that when he spoke, I was to regard it as being spoken by Almighty God, so I complied, and more time passed. I was fighting depression of an order that barely allowed me to get through a day, and to try to ignore this barbarity was becoming impossible, so I fixed up a little room in the rafters of JD’s mother’s garage. If MD found out, the crap would hit the fan, so I had to park blocks away, and walk in by the cover of darkness.

So I began disobeying the minister, but it was either that or continue to see what was too sick to witness. Now I would just hide from it, and pretend it wasn’t happening. I was trying to deal with the authority issue, and my bible studies became self defense, as well as the start of a crack in my belief in Armstrongism. For the first time in my life, I began to think for myself, and to silence the endless loops of paranoiac sound-bites that had been infesting my brain. One act of disobedience, led to two which led to thinking that maybe the authorities weren’t synonymous with Satan, and maybe I should bite the bullet and finally do something about this abomination that was taking place.

I called CPS (Child Protective Services) and set up a meeting at a local fast food joint and spilled my guts, but I tried to extract, from the agent, a guarantee that they would simply go in and take the kids. The agent refused, and I chickened out, and told him I’d get back to him. Fortunately he took down my license plate number and soon after, they acted.

I wasn’t there, but I heard later that they came in with squad cars that blocked off every street for two blocks around, and went into the house in force and with weapons. But for some reason, they didn’t arrest RPS. They took photographs and statements and took the kids. There was no further action for several months.

Feast time came. I managed to get out of going, and I was asked to house sit at my Grandmother’s. No one seemed to guess that I had anything to do with what happened, so I was not yet the enemy. I continued to attend my classes, and the tension subsided to a reasonable degree. I came home one day to a circus in the front yard. I got out of my car, and had camera lenses and microphones shoved in my face, with a harangue of questions coming at me from all sides. They kept talking about a coffin sized box, and 6 or so years of imprisonment of a child. I told them there was no coffin sized box, but I had built a storage closet with a bed on top, and I didn’t know about six years of imprisonment.

The truth was bad enough, but these people were not even trying to be accurate. I was totally unprepared, and tired after a long day. I sat down on the porch and wiped my hand across my forehead and someone snapped a picture that, the next day, was on the front page of the local newspaper, and to my understanding was picked up by wire services and went worldwide. It was in papers in New York to various papers in Australia and Europe. The headline; “Son of women who kept a boy in a box defends mother.” When I went to school that day, all went silent when I walked into the room. Someone finally broke the silence and said; “hey, was that your picture in the paper this morning?” and; “I saw you on TV on the evening News.” This would not be the last time I made the news; it went on for the next 8 months.

I called legal services at headquarters, since there was no minister to talk to. I talked to a mister Helge, I believe his name was, and I told him my story, and that I had told MD all about it many months earlier. I might have heard a gasp on the other end of the line, they wasted no time. I think it was the next day they called me back and gave me instructions. I was to meet a lawyer in his office downtown, and I was to shut my mouth, and say not another word to the press. I kept my appointment, and the lawyer told me in no uncertain terms, that he was a lawyer for the church, and his job was to keep the name of the church out of the press etc. He made it clear that people like us couldn’t afford someone like him, and that the hundred thousand dollar retainer he received from the church meant that he would defend RPS, but he did this only to achieve what he was paid to accomplish, and that I “damn well better cooperate.”

Eventually the press found out about him, and no one could understand why such a high profile lawyer would take the case of such a ‘nobody.’ I never told anyone except my closest confidants, until now.

The lawyer succeeded in minimizing the headlines and plea bargained for a 30 day stint in jail for RPS. There was outrage among many people who were following the story. But it all eventually died out and is now forgotten, but the collateral damage and warped minds remain.

What is my point in all of this? To me it seems that every story has to have a lesson, and the lesson here is all about legalism. The church didn’t tell my mother to do what she did. They would not have sanctioned it. In fact my mother already had legalism down pretty good because she learned it from her father. See Granddad & the Old Testament Law. The WCG at the time attracted people of this persuasion, and maintained their view; strengthened it; kept the paranoia going, the ‘us against the world’ mentality; the ‘Satan is the god of the world, therefore the authorities are evil’ mindset; not to mention the overblown notion that a pot smoker is some kind of evil minion of a demon.

I think this story just illustrates that law, meant to create good, can in fact generate evil, as in Rom 7:10 “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.” The best personalities I’ve seen, come from environments that concentrate on encouraging good, instead of harping endlessly on what’s perceived as evil. And I think this describes the Old vs. the New Covenant perspective. The creation of good can drown out the evil; it has in my personal experience. As long as I concentrated on how bad I was, I got worse. As soon as I just forgot about it and thought about good things, somehow everything I fretted about just seemed to melt away.

These types of parents create the evil they think they’re snuffing out.

A child loved, is child who loves back.

Cults & the Vulnerable

I was watching Wire in the Blood last night and this statement, from the clinical psychologist character, hit home;

"A leader of a cult lives to control his followers, their submission gratifies him, reinforces his ego. He is all-controlling...
What seem insane to us, is completely logical to the group...
They're just people. They're marginalized, alienated, vulnerable. Their looking for purpose, meaning. They crave certainty. The cult gives them friends, family - and all it asks from them is loyalty and obedience. They're happy to do that, so they remove their will..whew!..no more doubt, no more torment."

Sound familiar?

Ron tells them the world is facing destruction, Jesus is coming back in three years & he would have them believe they cannot survive without him; the end-time prophet of God. So they relinquish logic, rationality, individuality. They conform, holding fast to the irrational; ignoring or explaining away inconsistencies; refusing to listen to reason; begetting delusions of persecution when confronted with irrefutable evidence that threatens to shatter their cherished beliefs - "Waking up" presents the enormous consequences that comes with the realization that one has been 'duped.'


Check out Weinland Watch for more on the subject of cultism and thought reform; Robert J. Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform, When Prophecy Failed — In 1954 and CoG-PKG: Party Like It’s 1984

Ron Said Vs Jesus Said

So, if Ron says there are brokerage problems it's part of the tribulation...
earthquakes, part of the tribulation - interesting how all the 'usual' is now 'the tribulation' - He says it's amazing what people will believe. Well, yes.. it..is! I'm just astounded! Ron speaks LIES... and some BELIEVE! Look at the tragedy of Myanmar. Tribulation! Problem? Yeah, Ron said it happens in the US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand. What page of the book was Myanmar on? We won't even get into Ephraim and Manasseh.

Look, did you see that earthquake in the Aleutian's? It's a sign people! We're in the tribulation! Wait a sec. Which one? Cuz the Aleutian's are hit almost every day, multiple times a day, and have been for years. Does that mean the tribulation started YEARS ago?

Ron says the reason people don't want to obey God is...SEX! Yep sex. And Ron feels sorry for people whose lives have been hurt by sin. WHAT? Wait a sec! EVERY life is HURT by sin, because EVERYONE sins!

Ron is NOT a nice person. He is sadly lacking in LOVE, kindness, mercy, & compassion. He is condescending, arrogant, mocking and rude. He resembles, in NO WAY, Christ, AT ALL, and we all know it. You hear it when he speaks. You push it to the back of your mind, ignore it, but it's there.

He lives in the old covenant - a harsh, harsh place. You need to understand that the new covenant is where Jesus is. Here, there is LOVE, freedom, peace, forgiveness & salvation. It really isn't difficult to understand. Living in the old covenant isbeing on a dead-end road that empties at the Pit, or outside the kingdom. I truly wish you could see that.
You see that bus off in the distance? You see that person with His arm up in the air, waving you over? It's Jesus. He has a bus ticket for you, but there's a catch; You have to leave the road your on & accept the bus ticket in order to get on the bus, because it's on a different road; The narrow road to Salvation.

Don't cling to Ron for the hope that Jesus will be back in three years. He'll come when it's time. Why would you want to live a lie? It's kinda like; "hey, if you were to find out that my wife/husband was cheating on me, don't tell me, I don't want to know." Why live a lie? Don't let him stand between you and God anymore. 

If John said in 1 Jn. 2:24-27 "See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

why would you believe it when Ron says you must be taught by him? If Jesus said in Mt. 18:20; "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Why would you believe Ron over Jesus? Why would you believe Ron when he says you can't study at home and expect to grow spiritually?

If Jesus said in Jn. 14:26 "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." Why would you believe Ron over Jesus?

If Jesus said in Jn. 6:45 "It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." Why would you believe Ron over Jesus? Why would you live a lie?

*****

This blog contains articles that clearly and easily refute the things Ron passes off as the truth of God; (As I always say; Ask God for guidance before you begin & don't limit yourself to the scriptures provided in these articles, find lots more of your own! Do As Bereans Did.)


--- DID JESUS HAVE A BEGINNING?

---Do We Need To Be Taught By Others?

---Works Vs Faith---God' Law ...A MUST READ!!

---Ron Weinland & The Emperor's New Clothes

---Can God Die?

---The US & Britain; In Prophesy? Pt.1 of 2

---The US & Britain;InProphesy? Pt. 2 of 2

---Galatians; Holy Days Or Pagan Days?

---Response To: Galatians; Holy Days or Pagan Days...

---WHAT LAW ARE WE BOUND TO, & WHEN?

--- "A Lasting Ordinance, For the Generations to come"[ sorry, that blog has been deleted]

---Who Are The 144,000?

Mom, Brothers, I love you.

Great Post from "J" of Shadows of WCG

"J" of Shadows of WCG talks about the divided house of Armstrong in the post; Every Kingdom Divided. Here's a peek:


"...If God was in Armstrongism, there would be unity of ALL the splinters. If God was in Armstrongism, there would be ONE Feast of Tabernacles under ONE roof, and under ONE Leader, under the same government. But the fact that nobody is willing to get together in Armstrongism and have one leader in one government - the fact that there is complete inability to manage their own little kingdoms - the fact that they can never get together, each his own way, proves that Armstrongism is a JOKE.

If these leaders were serious about Armstrongism, if these leaders believed in what their mentor really said, then there would be ONE Apostle, ONE Government, ONE True Church, and ONE family. But they aren't serious at all. They're all, in my opinion, in it for themselves. Every one of them, trying to create their own little empire. Each one leaning on their own ways or their own understandings. All separated, all small, all with their own leader doing all their own thing. If they truly believed in Armstrongism, then they would be working hard in "repentance", sacrificing their own wills and egos and pride to go back to what they called "the faith once delivered" and revive what was. But they cannot. And they will not. And that is enough proof of the one conclusion:

God is NOT in Armstrongism. He has not been, and He is not now. He hasn't been there from the beginning. Every Kingdom is ruined, every house is not standing...."

Read the entire post: Every Kingdom Divided  Sorry, that blog was deleted.

Weinland Berates Perverted, Distorted Minds of Bloggers et al.

More from 5/24/08 un-sermon;

"...So, again, this is all quite specific and if I am God's prophet then he's going to make it clear. That's where it stands. The timing has and always will be in the hands and control of Almighty God. That's where our lives are. If it turns out I'm not a prophet, I will simply have to place myself before the mercy seat of God, as I have said, and seek repentance and understanding. But I do want to say something else, and more for the critics and just...and kind of goad them a little bit, some of the mockers, different ones out there; No matter what happens, the Church of God PKG will continue on, whether I'm a prophet or not. Johnny and Wayne will be real busy, but hey (wheeze ha ha ha ha)".......

About a year or two ago he was looking on the net "and was dumbfounded at the hatred, and the depth of hatred, people had for Mr. Armstrong, and I thought; 'he died in 1986' and people out there were still so filled with hatred... it blew my mind, that after being dead that long, that it's still out there, so pervasive, page after page on the internet....Oh man! I can't believe the hatred thats out there, the twisting and the distorting. And, uh, I understand why he didn't address certain things now. What's the point? What is the point of addressing the accusers of things they say and twist and distort.
And a lot of you, over the past few weeks, you've had things said about you, and distortions made. I think it wasn't too long ago, there was some stuff out there about Johnny. It was...all of it...I don't want to say what it was, uh, like to say what it was, but I'll hold myself back...twisting and distorting things and, and people so often, they know full well that they're BIG FAT LIARS! They truly do. They know they're making up a bunch of ...BULL! and stories about people.
Amazing what people will go to because they hate something so much. A truly, satanic, demonic mind. They even work in human beings, that will lie like it does. And they were trying to find things on Wayne but they just couldn't find other names that were close to his in Australia I guess, enough to malign him too much, but they made certain accusations. You know, attacks are made on some of you on the internet...it's happened to some of you. Some of you have experienced those things...of the depth that people will go to..because they so hate something. They don't even know why they're stirred up sometimes, to hate, and to be embittered to the degree they are." [How about destroyed lives? Lives that never had a chance to get off the ground?] "You ought to be in awe of that spirit, and that mind...That it could go that far, that it can be that evil and that cruel, and yet that is the mind that God has been dealing with for six....thousand.....yearrrrss. And only a few has he drawn out, to work with to mold and fashion..."

Ron reads an e-mail between brothers, which he says; "it shows an attitude of mind."

'If you don't believe Ron is who he says he is, then move on.'

"That's why I marvel...why do people...after 22 years still have the kind of bitterness and hatred they do toward Mr. Armstrong? " [Because after MORE that 22 years, lives are STILL damaged and never got started] "Move on with your life.[Yep, clean up the ruins and move on. Right! How many times has that been attempted to no avail?!] "But for some... that IS their life...STILL is their life" [That's what you call wreckage Ron] "...I'm dumbfounded...The person goes on to say here, in answering their relative..."

'Why are you so obsessed? You said several times that you need to go back to the book to prove him wrong. You aren't looking for truth, your looking to find fault. If you want to hang yourself, I'm sure God will supply the rope.' Audience giggles. 'Instead of listening to Ron's sermons trying to find the truth, you have read all the garbage off the websites you can find...'

"That's an amazing thing to me. The willingness of people to believe anything that somebody writes out there. And yet, I've heard story after story from some of you of things that have been written out there. And some of them about YOU. And people are willing to believe it because it's written down," [Kind of like your literature Ron?] "and it's against you, because that's really what they want." [In other words; he's telling them; It's the chosen, against the evil world] "That's what they want to believe. So, what they're looking for, is something against God's People, against ANYONE they can, to find fault...and yet they're willing to believe it, and they don't know who they're believing. [You can, however, believe your BIBLE! Something this blog repeatedly emphasizes!] "Perverts! Distorted minds of people whose lives are sick and putrid. Cuz I can tell you...people who write some kinds of things, their minds are so distorted and twisted up to have such bitterness and evil in their hearts and their minds. Get on with your life, find some joy someplace." [You think that's not the DAILY battle of Armstrong survivors?!] "Are you finding joy in such distortion and trying to find fault... your life, is revolving... it blows my mind...it's an amazing thing, isn't it?" [Such DISTORTION? YOU are the ONE who twists, lies, and distorts the truth! God's truth! We present the Word without any re-definitions, of the simplicity of God's Word. And, insist people don't allow another person to come between them and God, and to verify ALL things. We read our Bible, unlike you, who spends most of the time reading from YOUR books or defending yourself and your time line. You don't even give sermons, all you do is hold damage-control press (church) conference's.]

Sick, Sick Minds

5/25/08 sermon

"HWA is dead! People have such hatred for him. He died over 20 years ago. Move on. Do you get joy from this? People are willing to believe what they read on the internet from people they don't even know! Sick, sick minds."

Yes, Herbert is dead, but his work is STILL being carried on by his disciples. The damage is still here. Lives have been destroyed. Some of us don't even KNOW what normal is, because WCG was a sick, sick, twisted, organization that twisted and brainwashed the minds of adults and the developing minds of children.

The people doing the talking, are those who lived it. They were part of the WCG and/or one or more splinter groups. Personal experience.

It doesn't matter what you say Ron. The FACTS REMAIN:
You are a false teacher, a false prophet.

YOU HAVE ROBBED CHRIST JESUS OF HIS IDENTITY!

YOU HAVE DENIED HIS HAVING COME IN THE FLESH!

Ron, go pick up your interlinear.
Go to 1 Tim 6:13. Read it Ron. READ IT! What does it say?
It says GOD. GOD, was MANIFESTED in FLESH!

May God have mercy on YOU, Ron.

The Mirror

I was asked to write something to help some people see the difference between what the bible says, and what the HWA Mini-Me’s were teaching. I’m inclined to think it was an exercise in futility, but I did it anyway.

I started crawling out of my mind trap around 1989 when I began researching authority, because I had a so-called minister that was making my life a living hell, as if it wasn’t that already. I abandoned the church before it changed its doctrines because I had already found gaping holes in their arguments. Because of this, it has appeared to me that arriving at a different theological view is the singular route to getting the O.C. shackles off, so it has seemed logical to concentrate on this. But I find the personal accounts far more interesting.

Someone keeps asking me if I’ve read the current Armstrong Survivor post, saying, “you’ve got to read it, it’s amazing how much you have in common with AS and Aggie A.” So maybe I’ll begin talking a little more from the witness perspective since the bible proofs are pretty much huffing and puffing against a stone wall. The only ones that can save the deluded are themselves.

Beyond the general sense of futility, it seems blogging can be cathartic, so maybe there is some reason to continue. Talking to real live human beings, however cloaked in pseudonyms, is a new experience for me. I definitely have my tortuous-shell defenses engaged if I need to interact with another person in the real world. This is a remarkable place where one can approach honesty in a way that has no precedence, at least in my experience.

My nerves were pretty well fried before I hit puberty; frequently, at church, my right leg would quit working, and I’d have to lift it with my hands to get across the floor. My face was probably bright red with embarrassment. The congregation looked at me out of the corners of their eyes, and closed up their little huddles to present me with a wall of backs to isolate themselves from the church outcast.

It was the same story in all the church areas I attended; Olympia; Tacoma; Spokane; Seattle; Phoenix; Pasadena; and to the Canadians, credit, Vancouver BC was almost OK. They might not have wished to show discourtesy to the jittery American since I was a guest in their country. The similarity in behavior, in different areas says; the ‘cause’ was their common beliefs.

Church philosophy didn’t believe in psychological disorders, apart from spiritual corruption. So I’m sure I was a demonic presence as far as they were concerned. The church believed psychologists to be on the same level as voodoo priests. The church thought they were the only ones with all the answers. They would teach crap that caused people to create an environment of tension and a world of paranoia, poverty and shame for their families, and deny any of the human-collateral-damage, qualified help.

Actually, kids in general ostracize other kids who are “weird,” but not to the extent of OWCG kids. You’d think that adults would mature out of that kind of superficial judging. They certainly didn’t in the church of Herbert. I was too weird to have friends at school, and any kid who so much as talked to me at church would have lost substantial social status. I never did have a friend as I grew up, and never once did a single one of them waver from their attitude of disgust and condescension.

Now I have to ask the question; whose fault was it? This is a no-brainer. Kids learn and perpetuate the cultures they absorb from their environment; so when you have condescending, know-it-all, self-important leaders; you get condescending, know-it-all, self-important lay members; and of course kids of lay members.

Someone once said, “If you want to know how you really are, look at your children, they’re a mirror that hides no flaw.” It is a weightier flaw, the church of Herbert had, than the flaws they focused so much upon, (strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel). And I had a broad enough sample to conclude that the mirror reflected the same hideous image regardless of where the church of Herbert might have been located.

Food For Thought

I was reading the May 10, 2008 post; Can I hear an Amen?!!!, on the Post WCG Life and Theology blog, which led me to the Would Jesus be a Christian?, post on the TILL HE COMES Blog, and found two statements I really liked in the comments.

The first was from a commenter; Mark, who, regarding Christianity and works, said;

“In short, works is not a good theology,
but sound theology is never devoid of good works.”

This seems to be one of the Old/New Covenant (Contract) stumbling blocks for Herbertites. They confuse the two Contracts and don't really understand ‘Works’ & ‘Faith without Works.’ They put the 'horse before the cart.' I won't go into all that since there are already a few articles posted on the subject.

The second was a quote that Jim, another commenter; left which was that of;

C. H. Macintosh, who said;

“God has not confined Himself within the narrow limits of any school of doctrine – high, low or moderate. He has revealed Himself. He has told out the deep and precious secrets of His heart. He has unfolded His eternal counsels, as to the Church, as to Israel, the Gentiles, and the wide creation. Men might as well attempt to confine the ocean in buckets of their own formation as to confine the vast range of divine revelation within the feeble enclosures of human systems of doctrine. It cannot be done, and it ought not to be attempted. Better far to set aside the systems of theology and schools of divinity and come like a little child to the eternal fountain of Holy Scripture, and there drink in the living teachings of God’s Spirit.” (C.H. Mackintosh, The Mackintosh Treasury, Miscellaneous Writings by C.H. Mackintosh, (Loizeaux Brothers, New Jersey, 1976), 605.)

God is not a religion. Religion is man’s version of God’s Word, a set of rules based on mans interpretation of God’s Word.

This is an important issue. We should NEVER permit another person to stand between us & God, between us & the Kingdom, our salvation, & never rely solely on your source of information, trust your Bible; it’s YOUR responsibility to validate information. You cannot ride someone else's coattail into the Kingdom. God teaches us all things;

Jesus said; Jn.6:45 “It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." (Is.54:13).

1 Jn. 2:26-27 "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you,-remain in him.

Ben-Ariel's Religious Bull From Babylon

Here is another example of what I used to be, not by my own choice;

Thinking everyone else was so stupid, and always being the odd man out, I applied the analogy of Noah to my venerable leader, and of course, to myself. Noah being ridiculed while he built the ark was familiar fodder for my own fantasy. I lived in a world on the other side of the looking glass where the facts somehow didn’t line up with everyone else’s, and certainly not with the Bible. Here’s the example; an excerpt from an article by David Ben-Ariel; HWA was ahead of his time.

1) “Why don't you just be honest and admit you hate Herbert W. Armstrong because he spoke the plain truth that CANNOT be refuted?

2) that your traditional Churchianity is merely baptized paganism the Bible condemns as part of Mystery Babylon?

3) For exposing your SUNday as a pagan counterfeit of the biblical Sabbath; your pagan holidays you've sought with your replacement theology to replace the biblical festivals; that sheeple like you bleat they're born again and don't have a clue what they're talking about, since we're born again at the Resurrection only; that God is not the sadist traditional Christians make Him out to be;

4) that the meek inherit the Earth - not float off to Heaven; that you're not an immortal soul, eternal life is a gift from God; the wicked will be destroyed, ashes under our feet;

5) we can become literal God-beings, members of the Kingdom-Family of God?

6) Why don't you just confess and forsake your sins of murderous hatred against HWA for slaughtering your "sacred cow" and exposing it as religious bull from Babylon?

[Rather than repeating, I'll address the points & you can look back at the list to see the subject's details.]

Point one; Herbert can't be refuted: Herbert and Weinland alike follow legends and rumors and present them as fact. His ideas have been refuted, and his corner stone philosophy of British Israelism should cause humiliation to any who continue to buy it; but like the naked Emperor, these people are oblivious to the fact that they are exposed.

Point two; Christian churches are false: This idea comes from the book, The Two Babylon's or Papal Worship proved to be the worship of Nimrod and his wife, by Rev. Alexander Hislop. HWA used the presumption that the Catholic Church is the great whore; and the extra-Biblical belief in church eras, taken from the letters to the churches in Revelation. The lesson of the churches imperfection contained therein needed to be discredited, and replaced by the idea of the church as being a single physical body of believers under a single ruler; himself, instead of many united by one spirit. From Herbert's view only one church, (defined by being under a single administration, and teaching Old Testament law) could exist at any given time because the Bible speaks of one church and one body, so it follows from his purely carnal way of thinking that these churches couldn't have existed simultaneously over the ages, but could only be types, serially, through time. HWA's presumption is the basis of his proof of the church era theory. This provided HWA justification for his authority, and it's the same excuse used by Weinland and all the other disciples of Herbert.

The churches in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 existed simultaneously at the time of the writing and they all lacked perfection. But they had the most important possession; they had the testimony of Jesus. The churches existed simultaneously then, and the archetypes exist now. Just like children have varying degrees of understanding and kinds of faults, so do Gods children. Herbert had nothing but a presumption base on a physical minded perspective of what, "one church, and one body," means. The churches are united as one by the Holy Spirit, not by legalistic perfection, or singularity of administration. The lesson of these churches is that imperfection does not make them false churches. There's no such thing as a perfect person, and therefore, no such thing as a perfect church.

I'd like to touch briefly on a subject that alone could use up many pages. Ancient theological books such as the Vedas and the Shasta-Bad are older than the Hebrew Bible, and they contain remarkably similar accounts, and allusions to the birth of a coming Redeemer. Even the roots of Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma, appear to have their roots in accounts of Noah and his sons. Consider the Magi who saw the signs of the newborn Messiah, and came to find Him, as recorded in the gospels. These were most likely Persians, and philosophical descendants of the Egyptian; Hermes-Thoth, their original lawgiver. (Not Hermes the Greek god. To Herbert, names with similarity in phonemes meant synonymy in person or nation etc.)

These Magi had some revelation from God that, at least in part, proved true. Here's a quote from Hermes from the Pymander; "Thought is God the Father; the Word is the Son; they are indissoluble in eternity, and their union is life." This was written approximately 2800 years before Christ, as is the following in the beginning sentence of the Shasta-bad, the oldest of the Magi's sacred books; "God is one, creator of all things, the sphere of the universe, without beginning, without end. God governs everything by providence and by unalterable laws. Seek not for the essence and nature of the Eternal which is one, indivisible, ineffable: your seeking would be in vain and sinful. It is enough that day by day, night by night, you should adore his power, his wisdom, his goodness, in all his works." This could be right out of the pages of your bible.It's also interesting that in the ancient writings, and inscriptions,the Magi described God as, "He is because he is," the same description God gave Moses to use, to identify who had sent him to them. It seems that people generally understood who's name this was.

I suggest to you that the ancients had knowledge of the plan of God, and you can find remnants of this knowledge within pagan religions. In other words, pagan religions borrowed from the knowledge revealed by God. As an example; similarities between Christian and pagan symbology, of a mother and child's significance in human salvation, are from a root of revealed truth, and not originally pagan.

Point three; Sunday is a counterfeit sabbath: "Sunday worship is worshiping the sun god," say the disciples of Armstrong. These people are applying the Old Covenant law to what day's people keep, and they expect to not look ridiculous. The Sabbath is Saturday (Saturn's day; are they then, worshiping Cronus the Roman god associated with Saturn? Not anymore than Sunday worshipers are worshiping the Roman Sun god. Everyday of the week has a Roman god assigned to it.); the New Covenant has no Sabbath command. There are no days sanctioned in the New Covenant, or they would be spelled out in the contract; and there are no days one could institute, that wouldn’t fall on a day without some pagan name on it. Writings of the early church refer to Sunday as the eighth day. Eight is the number of new beginnings. It was always on a Sunday (the eighth day), when the wave sheaf offering was made, according to the Mosaic Law. In other words, it’s the day Jesus presented himself to the Father after His crucifixion. The day is not any more polluted than Saturday is polluted by worshiping God on Saturn's day.

In the Old Covenant, to eat meat offered to an idol was a strict no-no. You could be defiled by contact in a number of situations. This is not the case with the New Covenant. Paul's view was strictly modern; 1Cor 8:4 “We know that an idol is nothing at all.” The meat is just meat, but the actual sacrificing is a different story; 1Cor10:18-20 “Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the alter. 19 Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or an idol is anything? 20 No, but we know the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, I don’t want you to be participators with demons.” It’s the same thing with a day, unless, on the day you worship some demon, a day is just a day. 1Cor 10:25 "Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." In spite of what HWA, Ben-Ariel or Ron Weinland say, no one is worshiping Nimrod on Sunday.

Herbert defined true worship by Holy Days, Sabbaths and Feasts. This is, strictly, an Old Covenant view. What a day might have been in the past, can’t hurt you. Some churches try to get kids to come to church and do something Jesus-oriented instead of going out and participating in Halloween. They give it a different name. It’s a replacement, it’s not Halloween. And because it’s on the same day doesn’t mean demons are being memorialized. The kids who might feel left out, no longer do, so the temptation is neutralized. All I can say is; more power to them.

We were never allowed to wear a cross, in OWCG, because of its pagan origins; but what was a horrific symbol of evil became the instrument of our salvation. Misconceptions can pollute your mind, but your mind can’t be polluted if you are like Paul who said; 1Cor 2:2 “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” We used to hold people in contempt who expressed themselves like this, just like Weinland does today. I wouldn’t doubt that Paul might have worn a cross. Gal 6:14 “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Point four; no one goes to heaven: These people seem to be completely ignorant of what churches teach. I’ve heard plenty of them refer to the rulership of Jesus and his saints on earth. The Armstrongists get so riled up and sometimes virtually scream, “no one goes to heaven,” but even Satan went before the throne of God in the book of Job. Is a child of God less than the devil? And what of the numberless multitude in the book of Revelation? They're clearly in heaven. Does it even matter? Old covenant people were defiled by a host of rather innocuous things. These Armstrong worshipers get bent out of shape by non-salvation issues, and I guess it provides an excuse to be self-righteously indignant.

Point five; the elect of God become gods: The idea that you shall become like God was Satan’s first lie. Shouldn’t that embarrass people who one up the devil by believing they become God. The scriptures speak of human kind becoming the children of God, apparently this isn’t enough for them.

God has many names in the Old Testament: Hebrew; El: mighty one or a deity; Elah: object of worship, H430 Elohim: gods in the ordinary sense, occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates, and sometimes as a superlative: angels, great, judges, mighty; Eloah: object of worship; Yahweh: self existent or eternal; G2316 Theos: a deity, (with G3580) the supreme divinity; fig. a magistrate.

The question is, which of these definitions of God do these people want to be? The Bible uses the phrase, “you are gods,” three times, in Psalm 82:6, and Jesus repeats the verse twice in John 10:34-35. The Greek has only the one word for God, be it in the greater or the lesser sense, so any Hebrew name of God is converted to the one, which is less precise. It just happens that in the verse Jesus quoted the word god is from H430 Elohim which can be applied to a judge. Why would any one extrapolate from this that they can become God in the greater sense. This little scrap is all Herbert had to formulate one of his foundational teachings; and this is supposed to be proof? Paul said, 1Cor6:3“Don’t you know that we will judge angels,” elohim and theos both apply, since both can mean a "judge".

The definitions of God are; All Mighty, All Knowing, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Creator, Eternal, Love (the personification of), Ruler of the Universe, and "I am". There's not a single one of them that we can cast a shadow upon, He can share some limited aspect of his qualities but, we will never match his definition, so we will never be God as the English word is defined, since it has no applications for anything less than the Almighty.

Gods names are all descriptions of Himself; And God can make us similar to himself in some remote fashion; he judges and so can we; he rules and so can we; But to be self existent, no; to be eternal (meaning both forwards and backwards), no; and who is arrogant enough to think that they should become an object of worship, apparently HWA did, and his disciples do today. I have literally heard it stated from the pulpit that; "as a god, you will be entitled to worship."

And they like to point the finger screaming, “You pagans!” but how often in the books of the prophets does God say, “I am God, I will not give my glory to another.” God says in Isa 43:10 “Before me no God was formed, nor shall there be one after me.” David Ben-Ariel would have us believe Herbert over the Bible. The disdain that Ben-Ariel has for people, because they don’t believe they will become objects of worship, is kind of sick.

Point six; those who are anti HWA are filled with murderous hate: Just like Herbert, Ben-Ariel forms opinions by jumping to conclusions, forming wildly disproportional ideas from the scantest of evidence. "People, who are anti-Armstrong, have a murderous hatred," you say. This demonstrates classic OWCG paranoia. Sure, I know, the devil is at work in everyone who doesn’t except his BS. My problem is, I don’t like to be lied to. That really ticks me off. I don’t like the fact that so much of my life was wasted on Herbert’s nonsense. And I don’t want anybody to be where I was. I don’t want anyone to follow any of Herbert’s Mini-Me's, and that includes David Ben-Ariel and Ron Weinland. It actually would have been nice if Herbert could have repented before he died. There’s no way he could have made up for the damage he wreaked, but Jesus can, and Jesus did die for anyone who repents.

WHAT COVENANT ARE WE BOUND TO?

MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS &/OR [BRACKETS]:

WHAT COVENANT ARE WE BOUND T0?

An Illustration From Marriage (NIV)

Rom. 7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

2 For example, by law a married woman [THE CHURCH] is bound to her husband [PHYSICAL JESUS] as long as he is alive, but if her husband [PHYSICAL JESUS] dies, she is released from the [OLD COVENANT/PHYSICAL ] law of marriage.

3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband [physical Jesus] is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband [PHYSICAL JESUS] dies, she is released from that [O.C./PHYSICAL] law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man [SPIRIT JESUS].

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the [O.C.] law through the [PHYSICAL] body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead [SPIRIT JESUS], in order that we might bear fruit to God.

5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the [O.C.] law [the motions of sins, which were by the law (Authorized Version)] were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

THE OLD COVENANT REVEALED SIN:

Struggling With Sin

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

YET WE REALIZE, BY IT, WE BORE FRUIT FOR DEATH:

8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

WE KNOW THE O.C. WAS TEMPORARY, FADING AWAY:

2 Co. 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,

8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.

11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.

14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.

16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

WE KNOW IT'S PURPOSE WAS TO LEAD US TO CHRIST:

Gal.3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

WE KNOW WE CAN'T INHERIT THE KINGDOM UNDER THE O.C.

Hagar and Sarah

Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

27 For it is written:"Be glad, O barren woman [GENTILES - CHILDREN BY FAITH, who bears no children,break forth and cry aloud,you who have no labor pains;because more are the children of the desolate womanthan of her [ISRAEL] who has a husband [JESUS]."

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

30 But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."

31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

WE KNOW THAT BY KEEPING THE O.C., WE ALIENATE OURSELVES FROM CHRIST JESUS. BUT BY THE N.C. WE BEAR FRUIT TO GOD:

Freedom in Christ

Gal.5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.