Response to SJS (Jack) [How Do We Know What Covenant We Are Keeping?]

Smilin’JackSprat,

My apologies; sometimes life just gets hectic and you can’t get things done as soon as you would like.

You said I answered incompletely with a partial quote from Hebrews 8:7 by not including V8. As I see it Verse eight says the same thing.

If there had been nothing wrong with the first, no place would have been sought for another
By saying ‘fault was found with the people’, it is saying there is fault with the OC. What I mean is, it shows what’s wrong with the OC, that it could not be kept perfectly, therefore condemning man; Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
It is not mans fault that we are sinful. No man is without sin. We were sold as slaves to sin; Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
Only by keeping the OC perfectly can one be found righteous, but since no man is without sin – it shows that no man can keep it flawlessly. If there was nothing wrong with the OC and the fault was solely that of the people, it would mean people are capable of being without sin, that is; perfect, and therefore, could be found righteous by flawless observance of the OC, but that simply is not possible.
With the OC one is responsible for his own salvation, and condemned for his sins, because under the OC there is no remission of sins, Christ does not pay our debt. If one gathered wood on the Sabbath, he was to be stoned to death, no mercy, no forgiveness, and now that he has sinned he is condemned [Nu. 15:32-36]. He will not inherit the kingdom.
Since it’s not possible to be without sin, if God is to have a family, there must be another way for the debt to be paid, which the perfect Christ Jesus paid in our stead.
With the NC there is mercy and forgiveness, remission of sins. If we confess our sins, he will forgive us from all unrighteousness. [1 Jn. 1:19].
The OC did its job, it revealed sin, and it led us to Christ, through whom salvation could be gained.
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
Rom 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
Rom 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gal 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.


430 years after Abraham
Abraham was pre-Moses, what law did he obey? The Ten Commandments, the Law of Moses, had not been given yet. What law did the fallen angels break? Any word from God’s mouth is law, but it is only law for the one(s) it is given. If he tells Moses & Aaron to deal with Pharaoh, then it is their law, no one else’s. If he tells the Israelites to do something(s), it is their law, no one else’s, unless God says so. If He tells Ezekiel to do some specific things with hair and cooking food with human excrement in the site of others, it is Ezekiel’s law and no one else’s.
Abraham’s law was whatever God told him to do, and God credited Abraham with righteousness by his faith. God had not given a contract of works; this did not come about until 430 years after Abraham. It went from Faith in Abraham’s day (earlier and later), to a law of Works at Sinai, and returned to Faith upon Christ’s sacrifice of his life on the cross, for the payment of the debt we incurred by our sins.
Again; Abraham was credited righteousness by faith. Then, with the out-of-control Israelites, he gave them rules to follow. It didn’t matter if their attitudes were undesirable - they just needed to do what they were told to do. After Christ came, it returned to faith.
The NC is heart and mind – inner law. The OC is hands – outer law, about doing, regardless of attitude.
Paul tells us that with God’s contract, as with a man’s contract, you cannot add to or take away. This tells us that the NC is NEW and not an altered OC or the same OC. If there is no NEW Covenant what was Jesus doing in Mt. 5?
He said, “You have heard [this thing] but I tell you [this other thing]. Was he undermining the OC or was he preparing them for the difference in the NC from that of the OC?
He was telling them that actions were not enough – that it was ONLY washing the outside and leaving the inside filthy. The OC did not require purity of heart and mind – only obedient actions. Of course the actions could not be done flawlessly – thus cursing those, who were subject to it, to eternal condemnation.

Jesus was showing the difference
He was showing that purity of heart and mind were of utmost importance – clean on the inside, also clean on the outside, unlike OC; clean on the outside only – filthy on the inside. Under the OC one is cut off from Christ and therefore there is no remission of sins. Only through the NC, through Christ, is there remission of sins; grace, mercy, forgiveness, cleansing.
So again, because the OC cursed man to eternal condemnation, the debt would have to be paid in a different way if God is to have a family. That is where Jesus came in. He would keep the OC law perfectly (impossible for anyone else – since no man is without sin) and thus be found pure, and therefore, worthy to pay man’s debt in full.
The OC proves we cannot save ourselves. All of this teaches us that we need God, that without him we are nothing, and can do nothing. We are saved ONLY by him; by his grace, mercy and forgiveness in the payment of our debt, by Christ Jesus.
The OC and NC are not the same covenant. God said it was a NEW covenant and he said the NC would not be like the old one. How can it be a NEW Covenant if the only thing that’s changed is that it is now written in the hearts and minds of the people? It can’t, not if it won’t be like the old one.
Our actions do not, and cannot, save us
But our belief, our faith produces actions. It is the belief, our faith that saves us.
Keeping Sabbath or a Saturday Sabbath, observing holy days – those don’t save us. Keeping TEN COMMANDMENTS don’t save us. There is NO action that can save us. Only by our belief and faith in Christ Jesus are we saved – because that means we acknowledge that our value is in his love for us, that without him we are nothing and can do nothing and that we accept HIS payment of OUR debt. No action can save us, because no man is without sin. The penalty for sin is death. There is NO way around it. The debt must be paid, so, either we pay it (eternal death), or Christ does (eternal life).
We all sin. If we fail in one single way, we are guilty. We are no less sinful than a murderer, or an adulterer or idolater. It doesn’t matter the sin – it all results in eternal death --- unless we believe in Christ Jesus, in which case, our debt is paid in full.
There are two different contracts
Jesus showed the difference in Mt.5, and we see that the Law of Moses has long been a stumbling block in; 2 Co. 3:1-18
V15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Were the Pharisees or teacher of the law on the path to the kingdom of God? No, MT. 5:20, 23:13.
Mt. 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The OC would have to be kept flawlessly –or- turn to Christ and the NC.
Mt. 23:13 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

God' Law ...Some Points from jdposey

I thought this was worth reading. From jdposey; a member of AboveTopSecret.com:

Ronald Weinland Predict Large Attack On US & Opening of the Seventh Seal of Revelation
page 11

jdposey
posted on 12-1-2008 @ 08:09 AM

Originally posted by WeAreOne: "Hi all, tis only I again, It really staggers me when people try to say that we don’t have to obey Gods law anymore because people somehow have come to believe that Jesus did away with Gods law?? Matthew Chapter 5 and Verse 17 and on and on it goes, there are too many scriptures to post they tell us to obey Gods law; where have they got this idea?? Even Jesus himself observed Gods laws and annual holy days??"

jdposey: "Even Jesus himself observed God's laws and annual holy days??? You are not getting it, listen to what you said. "Even"...can you do better than Jesus? Can you do as well as Jesus? It took a while for Paul, but it finally clicked with him. Why do think Paul went to the trouble expounding himself in Romans 7:14-25. Why do you think God took the time to send Jesus, made of a woman (Flesh) and made under the Law? So everyone could go right on living under the law? All I have to say is this, I commend you, that you are able to observe every aspect of the law to the tee in its entirety, without any transgression. I have been where you are now, BUT now, I am content resting in the finished work of Christ, who lived the law perfectly, in every aspect of the shadows that the law contains and would rather trust in His righteousness which has been imputed to me. You see, when you realize that it is Christ who lives in you, the fulfillment of all that is righteous and perfect, no law, no person, not even the Devil himself can condemn you concerning anything, after all, I am dead, but Christ, it is He who dwells within and it is not my righteousness that is in question when I do fail, slip up and fall short of God's glory. How can anything or anyone condemn Jesus? What you are doing is taking the complete finished work of Jesus and saying it was not enough....now I will tag the law on to it. In essence, you are counting the death, the blood of Christ as having fallen short in its work and insulting God by saying or thinking that you can do more than what was necessary for God to send His son to address. The Law appeals to the flesh and I suppose, it will continue to do so. The very thing you are expounding, is the very thing Paul spent his time addressing."

What I would like to add, to what jdposey says here is, of course Jesus kept those Old Covenant laws. The O.C. was STILL in effect...He hadn't died on the cross yet. The New Covenant didn’t go into effect until His death, which is why He said, ‘It is finished.’
(JOH. 19: 30) When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Salvation was no longer our burden at that point, (Meaning, under the Old Covenant salvation is your responsibility in that you must keep it in it's entirety, perfectly, in order to be found righteous). He had paid our debt, died our death, freed us. (In short: Salvation is now a gift given by grace; we must accept the gift and we must love one another).
(GAL. 5: 1) It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

I strongly suggest reading GAL. 4:8-31 and understand v.21-31. It's very clear what Paul is saying here; No one under the Old Covenant inherits the kingdom. And I am quite aware that many of you who practice Old Covenant ways think your practicing the New Covenant, but you are not!

I believe the reason so many have trouble with this is because you don't understand what a covenant is. It is a contract. Just because there may be similarities in two different covenants, doesn't mean one was modified. It merely means there are similarities.

Let me share with you, if I may, the example I gave someone recently freed from O.C. Maybe this will help you with the Herbert W Armstrong/Worldwide Church of God misinformation:
'Oh! Then it's okay to steal, and murder, and lie...?'
They say this, because they DON'T UNDERSTAND it either.

Let’s look first at the word covenant. What exactly is a covenant?

NOUN
A signed written agreement between two or more parties [nations] to perform some action- a formal agreement between countries, organizations, or people / A pact or binding agreement between two or more parties to engage in or refrain from something.
A formal agreement of legal validity, esp. one under seal, [Like lambs blood?]
(Bible) an agreement between God and his people in which God makes certain promises and requires certain behavior from them in return
VERB
Enter into a covenant or formal agreement
Quest Study Bible dictionary, page 174
A mutually binding agreement between two parties…

So, then a covenant is a contract. So what would a new agreement between parties mean? Example:
A homeowner, being a party of an agreement may say, “I’ve made a new contract. You will notice there are some similarities. In the old contract, you were responsible for the cost of repairs to the house. In the new contract, I am responsible for the cost of repairs to the house. As in the old contract, you must continue to do your best to not cause damage to the house.”
If the old contract was done away with, does it mean the renters can now be careless in the care of the house, unlike in the old contract? Of course not! That contract helped the renters to become aware of how to care properly for a home, even though they could never come up with the money for repairs. Therefore, the old contract was good. However, the new contract is better because the owner now graciously pays for repairs. All the renter has to do is accept the money from him by presenting him with the receipt. Of course, they will not get the money reimbursed if they do not give him the receipt.
In the same way, Jesus gave us a new contract. Of course, we are not to blatantly sin ROM. 6:15. The old contract made us aware of sin, ROM. 3:20, 7:7 so it was good! However, in the new contract, we are no longer responsible for our own salvation. Jesus died on the cross to pay that debt for us! In other words, The Owner has said he would cover the cost of home repairs.

You see, there are similarities, but the two contracts are very different!
Under the first contract, we were responsible for our salvation because it is up to us to us to keep every single aspect of it, flawlessly! It was also an external law! It was all about going through motions, regardless of what was really going on in the heart.
Remember Jesus talking to the Pharisees about cleaning the outside but being full of dead mens bones and everything unclean inside?
But the N.C. is an internal law! It's not about going through motions, rather what's going on in our mind/heart. Because, it's what's there that makes us who we really are.

Why was the Old Covenant law given in the first place? Because the Israelites were so rebellious. Everyone clings so tightly to the 10 commandments. But people, those are only 10 examples of how to love. How many other atrocities can humans act upon others that aren't even listed in the 10? I can think of a few horrendous ones!
External. Internal.

Another example:
Sixteen year old Lisa is always coming home at 2 or 3 A.M. Seventeen year old Terry is always coming home around 8 P.M.Mom and Dad sit down with Lisa and tell her she now has a 7 P.M. curfew to follow or she will suffer the consequences. She wants to know, 'why doesn't Terry have to be home by 7 too?' Her parents reply, 'Because Terry always comes home at a decent hour without having to be told to do so.'
Why would these parents make Terry subject to this external law (curfew) when she has an internal law (comes home around 8 PM without being told to do so)?

One more thing. Some of you say that the mark of God's people is the keeping of the Sabbath. Again, that was true under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant God's people are known because they love one another.
John 13:34-35